Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II

I wonder how Ducky got to know it.
KR by example was discreet about his lover(s), Mavra did not now at all..

The source was "Fatal Passion" the only full length biography on Ducky. However I do got other independent sources confirming that it was a man.

Actually I don't remember in the "Fatal Passion" a revelation that Kyrill had a male lover. Could you please give us an exact quote?

Independent sources sound great but since you don't name them as always, all that is a speculation.

Actually it was in John Van Der Kiste's book on Ducky. pg 147. "So virulent was her reaction that some were tempted to speculate that whether history had repeated itsef, and whether he had been subjected to the same weakness or indulgences as her former husband". In Fatal Passion pg 393 "There has been speculation that Kirill was involved in behavior or relationship far more sensational and unorthodox than a simple and saual affair with another woman". The truth of the matter is that they all point to that direction. And even if you say speculation, because it cannot be proven 100 % as the people involved are already dead and the family unwilling to talk about it. The whole scenario does make sense on why Ducky, who was so proud and strong will end up "dying by inches".

Actually it was in John Van Der Kiste's book on Ducky. pg 147. "So virulent was her reaction that some were tempted to speculate that whether history had repeated itsef, and whether he had been subjected to the same weakness or indulgences as her former husband". In Fatal Passion pg 393 "There has been speculation that Kirill was involved in behavior or relationship far more sensational and unorthodox than a simple and saual affair with another woman". The truth of the matter is that they all point to that direction. And even if you say speculation, because it cannot be proven 100 % as the people involved are already dead and the family unwilling to talk about it. The whole scenario does make sense on why Ducky, who was so proud and strong will end up "dying by inches".

Thanks for the quotes. So the speculation is the main word there, even if "they all point to that direction".

Well. I would say that it is most "likely" to be true since if it was something even Ducky herself do not want to acknowledged or face up to. With my information I am happy to say that  it is "a fact that needs to be validated" rather than the other way around.

Well. I would say that it is most "likely" to be true since if it was something even Ducky herself do not want to acknowledged or face up to. With my information I am happy to say that  it is "a fact that needs to be validated" rather than the other way around.

Do 'uncover' your secret sources otherwise your information is not valid and sounds like a speculation. If you dropped 'it was a man' please give the sources. "Fatal Passion" doesn't answer the question.

So van der Kiste and 'Fatal Passion' report that there was speculation that Kirill's affair was with a man, but make it clear that this was speculation.

Interesting, but inconclusive at best.

Ann

It will not be conclusive because you have to remember that the family is not proud of that and unlikely to make a statement for it. But I have information from sources through researchers of Marie and her sister Bee that reveal that it was a man. However this is strictly off records. One could understand that family did not want to talk about this. In fact if you remember. Ducky swore Missy to secrecy about the whole incident. Yet Ducky's distaste on Ernie's affairs made her effort to couple with him to create a male heir a very unpleasant experience.  Her reaction to Kirill's "affair" was to remove herself from "any physical intimacy"made a good case for that.

I've got an barmy idea:

Maybe "the man" was Ernie who wanted to take vengeance upon MV by bedding her husband..

As I said a barmy idea... But not impossible..

It has also been suggested that Kyrill passed a STD on to Victoria. That could drive a wedge into any family. It is just as good and probably more likely as any other speculation.

Well..I don't think that would have been the case. For example both Empress Carlotta of Mexico & Archduchess Stephanie of Austria were given STD by their husbands, but that did not deter them from living, not to mention Sisi. who might got it from Franz Josef as well. For Ducky to go to pieces, that would have to be more than that. In fact the number of royals who have STD is not a small one. So Ducky would have seen that coming. I think the violent reaction would more likely be the same one she rejected her first husband.  It went straight to her soul. a rejection as a woman she cannot battle. I sincerely believe she termed it as a personal insult.

I wonder How VM found out.  We know that she caught her first husband in the act.  Did she also find out the same way with Kyrill?

Now that is where we get into speculation. For those who observe the two, Ducky was more of the energizer in the couple and actively pursuing ways to recover her position. It was she who supported Hitler by giving him her jewels and photographed with him (not Kirill) and who threatened to kill Dmitri if he has any designs for the vacant throne. So it would safe to say that she has eyes and ears everywhere. Someone who is more passive like Kirill cannot hope to hide his secrets from Ducky for long. It is did turn out that way. Once Ducky died, Kirill did not have the energy to continue the ambition for much longer before joining his wife to the grave. As for the "other party" in the affair, it would be a mystery unless there are any diaries or letters left behind (which I doubt). The whole thing is something that nobody in the family will want to bring up again. I doubt very much any other people (including their children) knew about the details.

I wonder How VM found out.  We know that she caught her first husband in the act.  Did she also find out the same way with Kyrill?

And indeed, I don't see how we can "know that she caught her first husband in the act" for certain.  The only evidence is third hand - the biographer (of Marie of Romania) Terence Elsberry's record of the remarks made by "a niece" of Victoria Melita (later identified by John Wimbles as Ileana of Romania) that "No boy was safe......from the stable hands to the kitchen help.  He slept quite openly with them all."  I very much doubt that Ernst Ludwig did it in the streets and frightened the horses - presumably what was meant was that he made no secret of his inclinations.  But nevertheless in that respect I would imagine VM would have been much more on the alert to any potential homosexual proclivities on Kyrill's part - which may have blinded her to indications of hetrosexual infidelity on Kyrill's side.  VM's stance with regard to her first marriage was much more uncompromising than biographers have generally credited her with, given her remarks to the Grand Duke Serge after the divorce that "As to Kyrill's attachment to me, Ernie was by no means ignorant of it as we talked upon this subject together and I have hidden nothing from him..........if I had only thought of my own future happiness instead of what I considered right I would certainly not have left Darmstadt, a more lovely home to me than I shall ever find again.........I will not enter into details about some propositions Ernie made to me which would have assured a life of perfect happiness and care to me.....but which my dignity and self-respect could never have allowed me to accept though you can well imagine the depths of temptation I went through and what it cost me to refuse.” (quoted in John Wimbles’ article ‘An enduring mystery – the divorce of Ernie and Ducky’ in Royalty Digest Quarterly 2 2007).  This strongly suggests that EL had suggested some form of open arrangement in which both partners could please themselves in private whilst maintaining a public marriage.  To the generations for which public scandal was anathema, it was indeed an extraordinary step to decline such an arrangement, since she took most of the moral blame for the divorce and a remarriage to Kyrill was by no means straightforward or certain.  Although biographers such as Hannah Pakula suggest that it was unconvincing that VM would expect a Russian Grand Duke to hold to his marriage vows, and that something much more heinous than simple unfaithfulness motivated VM in her hostility towards Kyrill, I wonder whether that is exactly what VM did – especially since there appears no evidence that Kyrill had overt affairs after his marriage.  It is possible that VM genuinely believed he had been faithful to her and her shock at the knowledge that yet another husband had let her down caused her to react in exactly the same way as she had with her first husband – no compromises, cut the fellow off at the knees.  Oh well, all speculation – I agree with Eric it’s unlikely we’ll ever know for sure.

Countess Kate

Can you just confirm that Wimbles is quoting a letter from Victoria Melita to Serge - it sounds like it but it's not entirely clear. This would have had to be written before Serge's death in January 1905, and so before VM's marriage to Kirill, which took place on 8 October 1905. Interesting that VM should treat Serge as a confidant.

I think your scenario is as plausible as the possibility that Kirill's affair was with a man. Indeed, unless a tranche of letters between Kirill and the object of his affections appears, we are unlikely ever to know.

Ann