Author Topic: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death  (Read 90581 times)

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Offline Marie Valerie

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« on: March 12, 2006, 03:55:05 AM »
Rudolf Franz Karl Josef von Österreich-Ungarn

* 21. April 1858 in Wien; † 30. Jänner 1889 in Mayerling

Only son of Emperor Franz Joseph and Empress Elisabeth


Married:

1X 1880 (in secret)  :o :o :o
Maria Antonia Archduchess of Habsburg-Tuscany
1858-1883

2X 1881
Stephanie Princess of Belgium
1864-1945

Child:

Archduchess Elisabeth Marie "Erzsi"



I'm surprised that he was married two times!?
(But is this really true?)

I know that he was married to Stephanie of Belgium but I did not known of Maria Antonia of Tuscany...



Offline Eugenie_of_Montijo

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2006, 04:17:27 AM »

Frankly, I´m not convinced about the stories concerning a secret marriage between Rudolf and his cousin Maria Antonia. I found somewhere (sorry, don´t remember why...) that they were lovers and that she became pregnant. But I don´t believe that emperor Franz Josef would not allowed the marriage if Maria Antonia was really pregnant with a son/daughter of Rudolf. At the end, Maria Antonia was a princess of a branch of the Habsburg dinasty, not a commoner...I mean that she was a suitable empress.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 03:46:34 AM by Svetabel »

Agneschen

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2006, 06:50:18 AM »
The story of a possible secret marriage btw Rudolf & Maria Antonia comes up here and there in various bios but personally I find it fanciful and do not believe a single word of it.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 03:46:51 AM by Svetabel »

Offline Marc

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2006, 07:51:59 AM »
Can anyone tell me something about ancestry of Baroness Maria von Vetsera?I think I read somewhere that her mother Helena Baltazzi was attached at her time to Franz Joseph and that's why Sissi didn't like her!True?I also found that Helena's mother was Viera MavoGordato,so I was wondering is it the same family as MavroCordato(Princely family) or no?

Offline Eugenie_of_Montijo

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2006, 08:07:33 AM »
As far as I know, Helena Baltazzi, wife of "freiherr" Albin Johannes von Vetsera, was daughter of a man named Theodore Baltazzi, a banker and economic advisor to the sultan. In fact, Helena met Albin von Vetsera, at the time a austrian diplomat,  in Istanbul.

I have read that Theodore Baltazzi was one son of Evangelino Baltazzi and a woman named Vgerou Mavrocordato, of the famous Chiote bizantine greek family.

The brothers of Helena Baltazzi Vetsera (Alexandre, Aristide, Henry and Hector) had great stables in Hungary, they become famous in the world of the horses and this opened the doors of great aristocracy, even royalty, to the family. It was said that Helena was a mistress of Franz Josef, but there are so much gossip and no proofs. It is posible, howewer, that Helena did made such advances on crownprince Rudolf, later the lover of her daughter Marie Alexandrine, named Mary, Vetsera.

Offline Eugenie_of_Montijo

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2006, 06:00:34 PM »


I have a lot of information about the Baltazzi family:

1.-Helena Baltazzi, or Helen Baltazzi as she prefered be named, was born in 1847. Her father was, as I said before, Theodore Baltazzi, son of Evangelino Baltazzi and his wife Vgerou Mavrocordato. Her mother was Elizabeth, named Eliza, Sarrell. Eliza Sarrell was the oldest child of a merchant of the Levant Company named Richard Sarrell and his (second) wife Euphrosyne Rasi.

Eliza Sarrell was born in Constantinopla and grew up in this marvellous city. When she had nineteen years she was married to Theodore Baltazzi, a man twenty five years older than Eliza. Theodore was an succesful banker: this is the reason why parents of Eliza were happy with the wedding.

Theodore and Eliza had a lot of children: the first Elizabeth, or Lizzie; the second was Helen; the third, Mary, nicknamed Bibi; the fourth,  Alexander. Then came Hector,  then was born Aristide, and then was born Eveline. Finally were born Charlotte, nicknamed Lolo, and Henry, usually known as Harry. Julia was a posthumous child of Theodore.

At the time of his marriage, Theodore Baltazzi was a subject of the Austro-Hungarian empire. His ancestors had managed to became citizens of Venize, and Venize was part of the empire since 1815. But in 1860 Theodore realize his dream: he obtained Austrian nationality and was also appointed as knight of the Franz Josef Order. A year later, Theodore was dead, leaving the wife pregnant of posthumous daughter Julia.

Two years later, the widow Eliza Sarrell Baltazzi married, in Paris, her lover Charles Alison. They had met each other at the british embassy in Constantinopla. After the marriage, Charles had gone to Teheran, as Envoy to the Persian Court. Eliza Sarrell traveled to El Cairo with daughter Helen, twenty years old. In El Cairo, at the Hotel d´Orient, Eliza and Helen joined Lizzie, wife of baron Nugent, elder daughter of Eliza and elder sister of Helen, but also other members of the Sarrell family. Eliza was seriously illnes and they deceased in El Cairo.

Before her death, Eliza had asken to the austrian diplomat Albin Johannes, baron Vetsera, to be the guardian of the unmarried children. At this time Albin Johannes made courtship to Helen, who had inherited from the father a fortune of six million gold francs.

One year later, in the British Embassy Chapel in Constantinople, Albin married Helen. He was twenty-two years older than the bride.

Albin Vetsera continued his good career as diplomat. At the end, in 1870, Albin was raised to the rank of baron.

Before Albin and Helen went to Viena, and they had four children:

-Ladislaus, born in 1865.
-Johanna Caroline Elisabeth, known as Hanna, born in Pera.
-Marie Alexandrine, known as Mary, born in El Cairo.
-Franz, named Feri.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2011, 12:23:03 PM by Svetabel »

Agneschen

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2006, 06:16:02 PM »
The Baltazzi made brilliant marriages upon the whole considering their status as commoners. Marie Virginie married count Albert Saint-Julien, Eveline count Georg Stockau, Charlotte count Georg Erdödi, Hector countess Anna Ugarte & Aristide countess Maria Theresia Stockau.

Offline Eugenie_of_Montijo

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2006, 06:28:27 PM »
Quote
The Baltazzi made brilliant marriages upon the whole considering their status as commoners. Marie Virginie married count Albert Saint-Julien, Eveline count Georg Stockau, Charlotte count Georg Erdödi, Hector countess Anna Ugarte & Aristide countess Maria Theresia Stockau.


Right, Agneschen  :)

The brothers were involved in horses. Alexander was the most brilliant among the Baltazzi´s brothers, I believe...He was educated in England and then followed his sister Helen and his brother-in-law Albin to Viena.

Alexander and brothers became founders of the Jockey Club of Viena, based on the English Jockey Club. This put the Baltazzis so close to Empress Elizabeth, Sissi. They had known the empress at Belvoir Castle, England, where she was hosted by the Duke of Rutland, around 1874. Since there, Alexander and brothers were often hosted in Godollo, the hungarian palace of Elisabeth. They became friends to the Captain William George "Bay" Middleton, the personal ridding assistant of Elisabeth.

Offline Eugenie_of_Montijo

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2006, 06:32:19 PM »
So...Mary, baroness Vetsera, was daughter of a newly created baron with a distinguished career as diplomat and of an heiress who spent lots of money to assure the social rank of the family. And Mary was niece of the founders of Jockey Club, friends of the empress Elisabeth, too.


Offline Eugenie_of_Montijo

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2006, 08:20:01 AM »
Quote
Wow,great info's and pictures Eugenie...I still wonder about origines of Baltazzi family...were they Hungarian,Greek,Italian-I mean by origin!


The origines of Baltazzi family are in Venetia, Marc. One Bernardo Baltazzi was the governor of the Venetian galleys, the warships of the Serenissima, circa 1480. A lot of Baltazzis became "levantins", member of the great community who had gone to Greek and Turkish places searching a fortune. But Theodore Baltazzi, the father of Helen Baltazzi, felt proud of being a "venetian". He was subject of the Austro-Hungarian empire due this condition of venetian, and, later, he obtained the austrian passport.

But If you are interested in origines of Helen, Alexander, Aristide, Eveline...I mean, the mother and the uncles or aunts of Mary Vetsera... it´s more complicated. They had connections to chiote bizantine greeks families, but also to british families. Remember that the mother of Theodore Baltazzi was a Mavrocordato woman. Eliza Sarrell, the mother of Helen and grand-mother of Mary, was daughter of a Rhasi woman. But the father of Eliza, Richard Sarrell, was son of a freeman of Exeter named Philip Sarrell and wife Sarah, born Sarah Sowton (of Devon).

Mary Vetsera liked so much her british background, because it sounds "more fashionable". This is a reason why she used the name Mary and not Marie Alexandrine.

Agneschen

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2006, 08:40:30 AM »
Why, Marie Alexandrine sounds much lovelier & refined than plain Mary to my ears. Matter of taste I suppose ...  ;)

Offline Eugenie_of_Montijo

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2006, 08:54:31 AM »
Quote
Why, Marie Alexandrine sounds much lovelier & refined than plain Mary to my ears. Matter of taste I suppose ...  ;)


I´m in your way, Agneschen ;)

I like so much more how sounds Marie Alexandrine (it seems a name for a pretty princess...). Mary is...very common, the most common name (I know it well, I am named Maria...). But the young Vetsera thought Mary was more fashionable...  ???

Offline Eugenie_of_Montijo

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2006, 09:22:25 AM »
I am trying to find some pic of Johanna, Hanna, later countess Bylandt-Rheyd, but...I have nothing  :-/

Offline Marc

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2006, 11:22:06 AM »
I also agree with you Agneschen and Eugenie,Marie Alexandrine sounds more noble...I am also interested in Mavrocordato family because I was searching some genealogical sites and couldn't find Vetsera grandmother!Were there other branches of this family that we don't know much about because I checked those Mavrocordato's who had Princely title and her grandmother is not one of them!Please,also tell me about her British ancestors,were there any nobles among them?

Offline Eugenie_of_Montijo

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2006, 02:13:22 PM »
Frankly...I never have seen Mary Vetsera as a beauty. Maria Larish was beautiful, but Mary seems just pretty. Some pics of Stephanie of Belgium showed a woman most interesting than this "fashionable Mary". I do not believe that Rudolf fell in love with Mary and loved her passionately...From my point of wiew, he felt a certain attraction for Mary because she was really fascinated with him.