Author Topic: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death  (Read 166340 times)

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Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #405 on: June 29, 2010, 09:57:18 PM »
I thought the story sounded purdy wacked out too, mostly because there were 3 doctors at the autopsy, and they would have noticed a wax carved face.  However, it is now known that these 3 physicians at the autopsy were willing to lie and say Rudolf's brain anatomy showed particular signs of insanity which we now know is impossible to determine from an autopsy.  So if they were willing to lie about that, what else would they be willing to lie about under orders from the Emperor?

Franz Joseph's younger brother (Archduke Karl Ludwig) said the truth was so much worse than the official version, but I have to wonder what is so much worse than a murder-suicide?   It's all so strange.
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Offline Carolath Habsburg

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #406 on: June 30, 2010, 07:49:13 AM »
More terrible? someone of the goverment or near of him killing both.(im not saying this happened, but im imagining a "Worst case scenario")

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Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #407 on: June 30, 2010, 09:01:11 AM »

Very true -- if an allied government or someone closer to Rudolf killed both him and Vetsera, that would be worse --- for them that is.  

But the murder-suicide version is the worse thing that could have happened to Rudolf's reputation and his legacy of political ideas.
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Offline Carolath Habsburg

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #408 on: June 30, 2010, 09:04:36 AM »
Yes , i agree.

Question: Did someone questioned his mental health due those bloody drawns he used to do and his general conduct?. Thanks in advanced.

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Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #409 on: June 30, 2010, 09:36:16 AM »
There is so much contradictory evidence about Rudolf, I don't know what to believe.   I've heard about the bloody drawings.   What was their original source?  Was it Latour or his first tudor or someone else?   If it was his 1st tudor, then it might be a reasonable response by Rudolf since this first tudor was so mean and vicious towards Rudolf. 

As for Rudolf's general conduct, that was viewed differently depending on who was doing the viewing.   It does seem everyone agrees Rudolf was one of the "bad boys" (as they call them today), he was a player and liked to gamble and so was in deep debt.  However, one author claimed that was only a cover for his political activities, since politics was his life, and anyway, his father and court wanted him to be distracted by women and wanton ways, and so he was given the dissolute Bombelles as his social mentor as soon as he became of age and was removed from the influence of the more reasonable Latour.

At any rate, various authors give grades ranging from A+ for F- for Rudolf's conduct.   There is one thing without a doubt I have noticed from studying his photos though and that is he had a certain vacant look about him, as if he had retreated to somewhere else.  I noticed the exact same look in Albert Edward, prince of Wales, later Edward VII.   Maybe it's a look that came from having to spend too much time at royal pomp and ceremony occasions when they preferred to be elsewhere?  Or maybe it came from both having severe childhoods with hostile or absent parents?  I haven't noticed that vacant look with any other well-known public figures on which I have studied.
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Offline Carolath Habsburg

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #410 on: June 30, 2010, 09:44:52 AM »
He had Syphilis Right?, That disease in certain point drives people crazy, no?

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Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #411 on: June 30, 2010, 10:21:59 AM »
Yes, Syphilis was known to drive people insane, but there was no evidence Rudolf had syphilis.  He might have had gonorrhea, but I'm not sure what the evidence was for that?   Was that from the memoirs of Crown Princess Stephanie?
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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #412 on: June 30, 2010, 10:28:07 AM »
Thanks for the correction!. Well, yes, Rudolph infected Stephanie and because of that she couldnt have more kids.

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Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #413 on: June 30, 2010, 08:42:27 PM »
According to Carl Lonyay, the nephew and heir of Stephanie's 2nd husband, it was known before she married Rudolf that he had a venereal disease, but at the time it was more important to her to be Empress, so it was a non-issue at the time of their marriage.
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Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #414 on: July 09, 2010, 12:11:44 PM »
Here's an article from only a few months after the death of Rudolf and Vetsera at Mayerling.  Notice, it won't even spell out the name of Vetsera.  It's the "Temple Bar", a London Magazine.  Scroll down and the coverage starts on page 491:  "The tragical death of the Crown Prince Rudolph of Austria-Hungary will exercise both the historians and the romance writers of the future".  They sure guessed that right.  

It will be interesting to see how the versions of the Mayerling tragedy differ from soon after it happened to those versions written decades later.  Since there was never any official investigation into these deaths -- or the investigation was opened and closed within a day -- then it might be reasonable to assume that the freshness of the evidence might give certain perspectives that would differ markedly from those written decades later.  In other words, the sooner the writing, the more unvarnished the truth might be.  

This April 1989 article says that Marie__________ showed up at the schloss after Rudolf had been there for awhile with Hoyos and Prince Philipp.  She had run away from her mother's house in Vienna and made a tearful plea to Rudolf not to desert her............but the Prince's feelings towards her were of a much cooler sort than hers towards him.  There is nothing to show that he ever entertained a strong passion for her;  but, weak in health, and worried as he was, her distress unnerved him, and he had not the courage to send her away.  Prince Philipp of  Coburg tried hard to persuade him to return to Vienna and attend a court dinner, but he refused, so Prince Philipp went back to Vienna alone........................the girl then made another hysterical plea to Rudolf not to forsake her, and he was obliged to tell her of the peremptory orders from the Emperor that he was to stop seeing her.
 
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Upon this Marie turned away, and, unseen by the Prince, swallowed the contents of a paper full of strychnine powder. The violent poison took almost immediate effect, and the unfortunate girl rolled on the floor uttering piercing screams. The Prince's valet came to the rescue and was frantically told to run and fetch a doctor; but before he could leave the house on this errand, he was called back and required to give assistance in lifting Marie on to a bed. She died in convulsions about half an hour afterwards.  The Crown Prince, in his terror and consternation, probably made up his mind at that time that he would commit suicide; but after the first outburst of his grief was over, he grew calm and ordered his valet to say nothing of what had occurred. Marie was covered with a white sheet; and the Prince, taking some flowers from a vase, scattered them over this shroud. He then went into another room to dine with Count Joseph Hoyos, and the valet naturally supposed that the two would concert means for informing Marie's friends of her death. So he remained silent as he had been ordered, and spoke not a word of what he had seen to the other servants.

The Crown Prince ate little at dinner, but drank feverishly, and several times left the room to go and look at Marie 's body and to write letters. After dinner a cabman who had driven the Prince to Meyerling and had put up his horses in the stables of a neighbouring villa, was introduced into the dining-room to sing comic songs before Count Hoyos. The Crown Prince entered the room occasionally, but was too agitated to sit down, and he complained of headache. Yet he was loth that the Count and the cabman should separate, and he kept these strange guests up till three in the morning.  

 Count Hoyos then went to bed, and the coachman left the house. The Prince's valet was also told to go to bed, but feeling uneasy he went and lay down in his clothes. Dropping off to sleep, however, he only awoke at about half-past seven in the morning, when Prince Philip of Coburg returned from Vienna with the intention of not losing sight of the Crown Prince any more.

The valet went to inform his master of Prince Philip's arrival, and found him sitting half dressed on the side of his bed. The Crown Prince gave orders to prepare the guns for shooting, and the valet went away to do this, but returning in about twenty minutes heard a shot, and rushing to the Prince's door found it locked. Prince Philip and Count Hoyos were summoned. The door was broken open, and the Crown Prince was then seen lying dead on the bed, beside the lifeless figure of Marie.

It had taken the Prince nearly twelve hours after Marie's death to nerve himself to this act of desperation
.

see page 503   http://tinyurl.com/27b3wlg        http://tinyurl.com/35qb8lz

It finishes by saying all other versions as to the causes or circumstances of his death are fanciful.  While that may be debatable, at least this version seems more plausible than many of the others out there.  It accounts for the lack of a bullet would in the skull of Marie Vetsera as noted from later raids on her grave.  It also accounts for the 10-12 hours difference in the deaths in a more likely fashion.  As an idealist, Rudolf could have felt overwhelming guilt and responsibility for the death of MV, without having to have pulled a trigger.

Unfortunately, what this article does not account for are the statements of Count Hoyos, where he claims he dined with Rudolph from 7pm to 9pm and that Rudolf was in a wonderful mood and at his most charming and ate and drank with gusto.  Even though Hoyos memory seemed to fail him at times, this article also fails to account for the later reports that Bratfisch (the cabman) later entertained Rudolf and M Vetsera until 2am with his singing.

Finally, this article did clear up some confusion, at least for me, concerning the relationship between Rudolf and his father.  The Emperor had not planned to become emperor so he had little formal education or book learning and his mother may not have seen the importance of it.  The Emperor
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thus felt for books that regard which comes from a sense of lost opportunities concerning them, and he was disposed to think that the secret of wisdom lay in much reading.............so in his twelfth year the unfortunate little Crown Prince had three resident tutors and fifteen professors.  He was learning Latin, Greek, German, English, French, Italian, Hungarian, Polish, and Czech—also Natural History, Political Economy, Jurisprudence, Austrian History, Bohemian History, and Hungarian History—besides common History, Geography, Mathematics, and Military Tactics.

This makes it clear that Franz Joseph took great interest in his son's education and had high expectations of him, since who else could have imposed this strict educational regimen onto Rudolf?  Certainly not the Archduchess Sophie, or the camarilla and it's highly unlikely the Empress Elizabeth would do this  either since she was usually gone, and even if not, she valued the freedom of time more than that given to Rudolf in his education.  So the idea that Franz Joseph jealously guarded his power, and was merely self-centered and shallow like a petty bureaucrat is most likely not true in regards to his relationship with his son.



« Last Edit: July 09, 2010, 12:27:29 PM by Pezzazz »
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Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #415 on: July 13, 2010, 12:25:06 PM »
I've looked high and low for Crown Prince Rudolf's coat of arms.  Where could it be?  Or did he even have one?

Could it be a variation on the common medium coat of arms for Austria-Hangary used until 1915:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wappen_Kaisertum_%C3%96sterreich_1867_%28Mittel%29.png
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Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #416 on: July 19, 2010, 09:29:06 AM »
I assume this must be Rudolf's coat of arms since it looks similar to that of his mother.   I've searched high and low to confirm this but cannot find it anywhere so it must be a rare and obscure photo?

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #417 on: July 19, 2010, 10:55:40 AM »
Attention Post #474 and " Pezzazz:"  He certainly would have had a somewhat elaborate coat of arms "differenced" for his rank and dignity. While I cannot conclusively confirm that the coat of arms in your illustration IS indeed the Crown Prince's, I feel rather certain (and I don't have the book in front of me at this moment) that this is the coat of arms depicted on the cover of that mysterious book that has been already mentioned on this Forum, entitled:  "He Did Not Die At Mayerling." While the arms shown are somewhat stylized, they DO contain the elements that one would expect of his ancestry/dignity. I would think that his arms would turn up as you continue your research.  Good luck!   Regards,  AP.

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #418 on: July 19, 2010, 11:28:12 AM »
AP, I do happen to have the book at hand, and it is exactly the same as shown on P's post. Even the background book cover [slightly faded on my copy]
  I do not, however know if this was the publisher invention, or the actual arms of the  CP Rudolph. 
 I agree that  it meets all the usual Hapsburg's  insignia
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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #419 on: July 19, 2010, 11:48:05 AM »
Thanks for the confirmation, Robert.  It is odd that you mentioned the "faded" part, since I was startled to see such a deeply-hued blue hardback cover in the illustration!  My copy is faded to a weak "light bluish-purple."  However it IS an old book, but perhaps the dye in that publication did not prove to hold up well.  Regards,  AP.