Author Topic: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death  (Read 166334 times)

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Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #420 on: July 19, 2010, 02:39:56 PM »
At the end of the book "He Did Not Die At Mayerling", there is a paragraph written in code and all Capitals.  I assume it's in code since no known translator will work.   So when I received my copy of the book, there was an old envelope from 1938 which contained a paragraph written on the back and placed at that location.   It said:  

Who steals my purse steals trash ?twas
mine is his and has been slave to thousands
But he that filches from me my good name
robs me of that which ?? ??
and makes me poor indeed
                                      R

W  N  H C IH   O NET  IHSE HCIR

This book was written in 1937, soon after the book "I Was To Be Empress" was written by Crown Princess Stephanie.  The author pointedly made the remark that her book was incorrect and made some unkind statements about her, which was unusual in this book, which was almost positive about everyone else (except Woodrow Wilson).  

What is fascinating is to get somewhat original books where there isn't a lot of repeating what other books have already said and see how they compare.  

So there's another book written 2 years later, in 1939 by Berta Szeps that is an interesting comparison -- since she reproduced a lot of the letters to her father from Rudolf and the transcribed interviews between Szeps and Rudolf.  In the Szeps book there was a 1983 letter by Rudolf which states that the Hungarian Prime Minister, a couple of his ministers and a 4th person had met and decided they needed to have Prince Rudolf as their King.  However, somehow the Viennese powers found about about this meeting, and Rudolf got a long letter from his great uncle, Archduke AA?, listing the reasons why this would not be a good idea.   Szeps notes that Rudolf was bitter about this loss or aborted attempt to make him king.

The book by R "He Did Not Die At Mayerling" states that the reason Rudolf had to flee the country was that 6 years later after the above mentioned event  in Szeps book, some Hungarians met and declared Rudolf their king, but they were sadly mistaken in their assumption that Rudolf would go along with this.  Rudolf tried to explain to his father that he never agreed to anything like this, but his father didn't believe him.  

This suggests to me that Rudolf may have been more serious about becoming King of Hungary than the book by R admits.  On most other points, these 2 books diverge widely.  Szeps book seems intent on making sure Rudolf's death was seen as a suicide and highlights his depressed and anxious state.  Naturally I have to wonder if this isn't a bit of defensiveness due to some who believed Rudolf was murdered by orders of Clemenceau, and the fact that Szeps were closely related to the Clemenceaus.  

Both the R and Szeps books also claim at the end that Rudolf wrote a letter to the pope.  Szeps claims direct communication from Rudolf where he said this letter was seeking to divorce Stephanie.  R claims the letter wasn't seeking to divorce Stephanie, but wanting to clear up a little problem of bigamy, since Rudolf was supposedly already married legally in the eyes of the Church when he married Stephanie.  

It is a fascinating mystery, and somewhere the truth might reveal itself.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 02:42:47 PM by Pezzazz »
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Offline Yelena Aleksandrovna

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #421 on: August 10, 2010, 03:34:11 PM »
Allegory of the birth of the Crown Prince

Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #422 on: August 22, 2010, 04:18:37 PM »
Crown Prince Rudolf would have been 152 years old yesterday if he had lived.  He might have died at Mayerling at age 30, or perhaps according to one book, he didn't die until sometime around 1914 which would have put him in his mid-fifties.

One of the best sources of what really happened comes from the book by Judith, Countess of Listowel called "A Habsburg Tragedy" written in 1978.   Her family was Hungarian aristocrats and her maternal grandfather knew Rudolf as he was a member of the Hungarian Upper House and of the delegation to Austria.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/obituaries/article852684.ece

Her information for what happened came from an heir of the prime minister at the time, Eduard Taaffe, a bitter enemy of Rudolf.  As Prime Minister, and keeper of the papers related to the short investigation into the death, he would be the most likely person to know what really happened -- he might have even been party to it.

So what is this truth that was far worse than any of the versions as Emperor Franz Joseph said at the opening of the Mayerling convent?  As confirmed by both the grandson of Prime Minister Taaffe and by a direct descendent of Crown Prince Rudolf, as well as confirming the contemporary theories of what happened by Papal Nuncio Galimberti and German ambassador Prince Henrich VII Reuss, this is what they believed happened:

"Ten soldiers  of Archduke Albert's (Albrecht -- Emperor FJ's uncle and head of the Austria-Hungarian military) Roll Commandos were dispatched to Mayerling.  The Roll Commando were specially trained troops of the Austrian Army kept ready to carry out special orders at any time and in any place.  The detachment, two of whom were experienced sharpshooters, were hidden in the garden of the Hunting Lodge.  They were given explicit orders that if the Crown Prince had not taken his own life by 6:30am, they were to shoot him.  Rudolf was unable to carry out his desperate intention and accordingly at about 7 am, the two Roll Commando sharpshooters entered his room through the window and shot him."

This version certainly covers all the angles since there is good evidence that Rudolf intended suicide, and there is also good evidence that it was a murder -- and the two together, with the official denial of one part of the tragedy would go far to explain the confusion.

It's not difficult to imagine that Archduke Albrecht could be responsible for this.  He was a man not know for being amiable.  Albrecht had become a bitter enemy of Rudolf who described him as "........really deplorably nervous and could leave nothing and nobody in peace for a moment................and he delights in nosing about, picking quarrels, in intriguing and doing harm for he is malicious".
 
http://www.austro-hungarian-army.co.uk/biog/erzalbrecht.html

Another photo of Archduke Albrecht:



Albrecht was a reactionary, ultra-conservative, cold, ruthless and there was a wrong way to do things and his way.  He could not tolerate either Archduke Johann Salvator (who renounced his titles and disappeared as John Orth after Mayerling) or the Crown Prince.   For years Salvator had been taunting the old Albrecht and agitating him to the breaking point since Salvator had few restraints on his behavior.   Here's a photo of Archduke Johann Salvator and notice that Habsburg jaw in both Albrecht and Salvator.



The direct descendents of Archduke Albrecht became the Dukes of Württemberg and the Princely family of Liechtenstein.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2010, 04:22:20 PM by Pezzazz »
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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #423 on: August 22, 2010, 06:32:50 PM »
And Mary?


If this is true, wow. I mean it could be true. But he wrote letters to his family, before his death.

Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #424 on: August 23, 2010, 02:04:55 PM »

And Mary?


If this is true, wow. I mean it could be true. But he wrote letters to his family, before his death.



Good point Rani -- what about Mary?   Lady Paget, wife of the British Ambassador to Austria at the time, asked the same question:   "Why did they have to kill the girl too?"

My best guess is that Mary showed up unexpectedly -- and she had a Love-To-Die-For on the brain, so it is reasonable to think she killed herself -- hours before Rudolf was killed.  Or maybe they were both murdered at the same time?  

There used to be a custom in the Austrian army that if a soldier was found guilty of some grievous offense, he was visited by a couple officers, given a pistol and told to do the honorable thing.  If he didn't, then someone else would do it for him.  This kind of scenario would explain the suicide letters Rudolf wrote where he said something like ~~ I don't want to die, but I have to.  It's the honorable thing to do~~.  Now it's a sure thing that if Rudolf was worrying about doing the honorable thing to save his name, he most certainly would not have wanted to be found dead in bed with a nude dead mistress next to him.  The 2 possibilities are mutually exclusive.  I've come to the conclusion that the whole spiel about Rudolf wanting someone to die with him was just spin designed to further assassinate his character.

For example, consider the alleged claims by long-term mistress Mitzi Casper that Rudolf had asked her to die in a suicide pact with him.  She apparently reported this to the local police, who took down no documentation and did nothing about it.   (Mitzi never talked, but she was well provided for until she died.)  Now to get a better idea of how silly this scenario is, try to imagine today's Prince Charles asking Camilla to join him in a suicide pact since the fallout from the War of the Wales was getting too messy.   Would anyone here expect Camilla to go to the local police and report that Charles was thinking about suicide?   Haha, I do not think that would have been her response, or the response of any woman in that position.   There were plenty of other people who were older and did care about Rudolf that Mitzi could have by all reasons been expected to go to first, such as Latour or Szeps?  

While the above scenario does explain many of the contradictions and dismisses some of the strange conclusions made from essentially nothing, it still fails to take into account some other possibilities that also come from excellent sources.   For example, what about Empress Zita's claim that it was Georges Clemenceau of France that had Rudolf killed.   Now it is known that it was Crown Prince Rudolf's sister Gisele who told Zita that, so actually, that is also a good source that cannot be easily dismissed.................more on that later.  

Finally I'll close this post with a photo of the lovely Crown Princess Stephanie, who I suspect might have been the source of much of the really awful beliefs commonly accepted about Rudolf today:




« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 02:23:19 PM by Pezzazz »
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Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #425 on: August 31, 2010, 01:10:14 AM »
Am I one of very few still interested in this subject?  ;)  Anyway, happiness is a new book on the subject and it arrived today:  "My Life Story, from Archduke to Grocer" by Leopold Wolfling (ex-Archduke Leopold of Tuscany).  

So what finally happened between the 'the gravedigger of the Monarchy' as Rudolf referred to his uncle, the Archduke Albrecht, Colonel-in-Chief of the Roll Commando Execution Squad, and Emperor Franz Joseph?  Did FJ suspect what might have happened?  Could FJ have been partly guilty by sin of omission?  Although almost completely blind, Albrecht remained Inspector General until his death in 1895 at the age of 78.  Over a thousand officers attended his State funeral, and the Emperor issued an Order of the Day describing him as the 'ornament and pride' of the army.  However, Archduke Albrecht did have the humiliating experience on 1893 of having to preside when a military commission, set up by Franz Joseph, re-examined Rudolf's drill book and found it so good that it was introduced into the Austrian Army training and used until the Emperor's death in 1916.  Prime Minister Taaffe also resigned in 1893 and died in 1895.

Was Emperor Franz Joseph so ruthless and hard-hearted that he would allow his own son to be murdered as suggested by the activities of those closest to him in policy/decision making, or was this information carefully hidden from him? If it was hidden from him, then why would FJ have agreed to close the investigation into Rudolf's death after less than one day?  Would he not want to know the truth like any normal father?  Or did he know the truth and for whatever reason, thought silence was best?  No matter how many pictures I see of FJ, he always looks like a kind person and incapable of being cold and ruthless to the point he would allow his son to be killed.  

Rudolph: The Tragedy Of Mayerling by Carl Lonyay made claims that the Camarilla could run circles around Franz Joseph who was uneducated and not very intelligent.  They made a point of keeping FJ so busy with busy work that he would have no time to interfere in important decisions of running the country.  They gave him piles and piles of papers every day and asked him to make notes of what he thought was important and then to make sure they were properly filed away (and ignored), and the obsessive bureaucrat in the Emperor loved this type of "work".  His other main occupation was designing uniforms for the military and the micro-management of all his extended relatives, who were also almost all kept out of any important or meaningful activity.  This doesn't seem that unbelievable when comparing the general countenance of Franz Joseph to that of some of his ~contemporaries:



However, some hints can be seen regarding the true feelings of Franz Joseph, not only in his insistence that his son's military drills were put into use over the objection of his advisors, but also in his effective block in preventing Cardinal Rompello from becoming pope.  Cardinal Rompello was on his favorite moral hobby horse soon after the death of Rudolf -- making every effort to prevent Rudolf from  having a Christian burial, and clearly, FJ never forgot or forgave this.

In addition I've often wondered if the unforgiving response of FJ to the assassination of his next heir (Franz Ferdinand) was not a delayed reaction to what he wished he could have done following the death of his own son.  When Franz Ferdinand was killed, Austria immediately made extreme demands on Serbia, and surprisingly, Serbia agreed to all the demands, but then the Austrian government  shocked the world by declaring war on Serbia anyway, and so started WWI.  

Another surprising twist to the story, also inspired by Franz Joseph I suspect, is the rumor that it was French Prime Minister Georges Clemenceau who had Rudolf murdered.  This claim came through Empress Zita apparently through Rudolf's sister Gisele.  It's hard to imagine they would make this claim without the approval or knowledge of the Emperor, and it's even harder to imagine there's any truth to it since Rudolf was quite pro-French alliance.   It makes no sense unless it was some red herring used to further confound and bury the tragedy in a mass of confusion.

Franz Joseph died before history found his son to be dissipated, dissolute, immoral, corrupt and weak but powerfully insane.  I'd like to believe that if FJ knew this is how history would judge his son, he would have made some effort to get a better story accepted, and it might have been more truthful, even if that truth was worse for someone else.  
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 01:14:27 AM by Pezzazz »
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Offline aor

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #426 on: August 31, 2010, 07:40:33 AM »
I think that there are a number of people very interested in what really happened at Mayerling. Are we ever going to know the thruth? NO, we are not. The investigation was closed before any true investigation took place. I do believe there is a lot to hide and I also believe it will stay hidden. Too many things 'got lost'.......Taafe and the Mayerling papers, Johann Salvator (Orth) and the metal box. Was this because FJ was guilty (by omission or otherwise) or covering up what he thought was worse then the suicide story. Archduke Albrecht utterly disliked Rudolph. I am not a big 'fan' of the Countess Larish, but I also do not think she lied about everything in the books she wrote. Rudolph was a person without proper guidance, he was super intelligent, but needed a guiding hand, not provided to him by his parents, not Elisabeth, who was more interested in herself or by FJ, who liked being Kaiser and did not wanted to change directions and look at the future and who, like his mother, saw 'things' a little different. I strongly believe if Rudolph would have come to the throne, he would have made a good Kaiser.

Offline nena

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #427 on: August 31, 2010, 07:43:31 AM »
When Franz Ferdinand was killed, Austria immediately made extreme demands on Serbia, and surprisingly, Serbia agreed to all the demands, but then the Austrian government  shocked the world by declaring war on Serbia anyway, and so started WWI.  

Incorrect -- Serbian Government did not agree on the all demands. The Ultimatum of the Austrian Government contained 10 main demands that Serbia had to accept in order war not to break out. The Government hardly accepted nine of them. However, the last demand, and the 10th, requested from Serbian Kingdom to allow to the Austro-Hungarian authorities/investigation body to investigate (all-over the Serbian territory) the cause of the murder that took place in Sarajevo on the hot summer day, June 28th 1914 at eleven o'clock in the morning, when Arch-Duke Franz Ferdinand and his wife Arch-Duchess Sophie were assassinated. Simply, Nikola Pashic, as a head of the Government couldn't have allowed that kind of humiliation to Serbia.

Surprisingly how did the old rule 'cause - consequence' worked out. I am sure that, hadn't Mayerling story occurred, most likely the WW1 would have been delayed for a little while. There are many of others factors that influenced on those events.

By the way, I have always somehow believed that his family knew the truth. I am 100 % correct when I say that at least one of the star-crossed lovers was murdered. It is reported that Emperor Franz Joseph changed some his announcements on regarding the real cause of his son's death. It was supposed to be a heart-attack at first, later on, he had probably 'committed suicide' but with no pact mentioned,  and so on... See the first link below, I'm just repeating the book's lines on regarding Franz Joseph.
 
Thank you for reading.

Post scriptum : There is a book, I believe highly recommended, that link both Mayerling and Sarajevo event , take a look:

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1880174

And a movie on the same theme, 'De Mayerling à Sarajevo' from 1940:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0032384/
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 07:55:18 AM by nena »
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Offline Imperial_Grounds

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #428 on: September 01, 2010, 10:16:52 AM »
Certainly the above theories could all be true... But we will never know the true story. For one, Rudolf wanted his and Mary's letters to be burned - those could have cleared up some things - and all the other reports are contradicting too... Even though I myself will keep up to the suicide, I mean those letters... He certainly must have had the plan to kill himself, and Mary wrote her letters too, we should not forget that.

We can discuss it forever but we will never know the truth, and we all will stick to our own believes. As a close friend of mine said, maybe Rudolf was born too early.... Maybe the world was not ready for his beliefs, which I think too - especially at the Royal Courts - and was there no one who really accepted his views and would change anything about the way of things. This however is no reason to kill yourself... We will never know why he died, why Mary died with him and what lead them to do it. Was she pregnant? Had he done something unforgivable? We won't know that, too much time has passed since.
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Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #429 on: September 01, 2010, 11:50:44 AM »
Here's excerpts from the alleged farewell letters written by the allegedly insane Rudolf:

Quote
Dear Stephanie,
............................. ..............I am going tranquilly to death, which alone can save my good name.  

I embrace you most warmly,
Your loving Rufolf

and

Quote
Dear Szogyeny,

I must die, it is the only way in which to leave this world at least like a gentleman.................... .........be so good as to open my writing desk in Vienna....................... ... to deal with the papers in it as laid down in my final wishes -- enclosed herewith.......................

Also to his sister Valerie: "I do not die willingly but........".  In each letter he repeated the same theme -- that he must die.  He did not reveal why except it had to do with saving his honor and good name.

I'm surprised no one has ever picked up on the impossibility of these letters in conjunction with how he was found dead.  Sure it's easy to say, well he had the insane Wittelsbach genes from his mother (and father), and of course if his 2nd cousin (King Ludwig II of Bavaria) was completely insane, then Rudolf must have been too since he was a friend of his, and he must have picked it up (by osmosis), and so nothing he would do could expect to have any reason.  Never mind that this ignores everything that Rudolf was up until the time he died.   Unfortunately there was more money to be made in writing books or making movies about high drama with sex, drugs and debauchery.  

From the above theme of Rudolf's suppose farewell letters, the only reasonable conclusion I can imagine is that Rudolf did not plan to have Mary Vetsera with him when he committed suicide or disappeared.  IOW, if something makes absolutely no sense, then it is probably not true.

A book written in 1916 by Rudolf's private secretary (Colonel Heinrich von Spindler) stated that Vetsera was never expected at Mayerling.  She showed up with a letter supposedly from Rudolf asking her to come to Mayerling.  Rudolf looked at the letter and said that although it looked like his handwriting, he never sent the letter to her, but that he was happy she was there anyway.    
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Offline Silja

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #430 on: September 02, 2010, 03:01:12 PM »
Even though I myself will keep up to the suicide, I mean those letters... He certainly must have had the plan to kill himself, and Mary wrote her letters too, we should not forget that.


Precisely. Besides, he had asked Mizzie Caspar to commit suicide with him earlier on.

Offline Imperial_Grounds

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #431 on: September 02, 2010, 04:19:40 PM »
True... And there is his desperate act on christmas eve - if we can call it desperate - when he collapsed at his mother's feet.... A cry for help maybe? Might sound a bit melodramatic, but a person who is actually depressed does such a thing when things get really out of hand... And everybody deals with depression in his/her own way, so there is no definition as to why Rudolf acted in the way he did. As I heard one person put it: when Mizzie declined his offer she became the image of life for him, and Mary became the image of death... Also there are the words he wrote to his mother, about being burried near Mary "that dear angel who choose to accompany me in death", or something in that sense - since the letter got burned at the story was second-hand. I believe Countess Festetics was the one who told it? Not sure though, should check my books for that.
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Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #432 on: September 02, 2010, 08:10:51 PM »
I am not a big 'fan' of the Countess Larish, but I also do not think she lied about everything in the books she wrote……………………………… I strongly believe if Rudolph would have come to the throne, he would have made a good Kaiser.

I do agree that it’s definitely a mistake to discount everything Countess Larisch wrote.  Some things were of course self-serving and not that difficult to see, but other statements had a certain ring of truth with no clear motive. 
Rudolph would have been a good Kaiser no doubt.  If he had the chance before WWI, the landscape would have been changed as well since he wanted to break the alliance with Germany and join England/France instead.  This may have prevented WWI since Germany could not have risked any aggression if surrounded by enemies on all sides.

Incorrect -- Serbian Government did not agree on the all demands. The Ultimatum of the Austrian Government contained 10 main demands that Serbia had to accept in order war not to break out. The Government hardly accepted nine of them. However, the last demand, and the 10th, requested from Serbian Kingdom to allow to the Austro-Hungarian authorities/investigation body to investigate (all-over the Serbian territory) the cause of the murder that took place in Sarajevo on the hot summer day, June 28th 1914 at eleven o'clock in the morning, when Arch-Duke Franz Ferdinand and his wife Arch-Duchess Sophie were assassinated. Simply, Nikola Pashic, as a head of the Government couldn't have allowed that kind of humiliation to Serbia.
Surprisingly how did the old rule 'cause - consequence' worked out. I am sure that, hadn't Mayerling story occurred, most likely the WW1 would have been delayed for a little while. There are many of others factors that influenced on those events.
By the way, I have always somehow believed that his family knew the truth.


Great post Nena, and thank you for the correction.  It’s always welcome to get the truth from an expert.  Still, did you not think the Austrians were a little hot-headed in their response, especially since there was no love lost between FJ and FF? 

We can discuss it forever but we will never know the truth, and we all will stick to our own believes. As a close friend of mine said, maybe Rudolf was born too early.... Maybe the world was not ready for his beliefs, which I think too - especially at the Royal Courts - and was there no one who really accepted his views and would change anything about the way of things. This however is no reason to kill yourself......................

It’s too bad Sherlock Holmes never took a shot at this mystery – He could have cracked the case.  ;)
Seriously, I think there are a lot of clues not given due process – especially those that came from family members.  It’s true, it has been a long time ago, but then a massive amount has been written about the case, and some of it was by people expected to know the truth.  Unfortunately many smoke screens and false leads were put up to hide and mislead.  Maybe it was suicide, but then maybe not.  The only thing I’m certain of is the nature of the suicide letters did not match the suicide scene and I don’t believe Rudolf was so insane that he was beyond all reason.
However, the best argument I know for suicide is that Rudolf had little parental love as a small child.  Although both his parents probably did love him, for whatever reason, they didn’t demonstrate it while he was alive.  I'm not sure his wowwow or Latour or others offered enough support of the parental kind, in fact I doubt they felt they had the authority to do so. 
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Offline nena

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #433 on: September 02, 2010, 08:50:24 PM »
Great post Nena, and thank you for the correction.  It’s always welcome to get the truth from an expert.  Still, did you not think the Austrians were a little hot-headed in their response, especially since there was no love lost between FJ and FF?  

You're very welcome. I don't see myself being an expert, but thank you, I feel flattered. Well, I have always made the difference between the provocation and the real cause of the WW1's breaking-out. However, provocation was that unhappy assassination in Sarajevo, but the real cause was Austro-Hungarian tendency to enlarge it's territory over the Danube barrier, on the South. In that time , French President Poincaré made an official visit to the Russian Empire. There were rumors that plans about the possible war had been previously made in the castle of Konopisht, where Kaiser Wilhelm and FF made something like an agreement (Radzinsky, 'Rasputin's File', not a verbatim). However, the Serbian Government got the Ultimatum as soon as President Poincaré left Russia, simply because 'Triple Alliance'  couldn't have allowed to France and Russia immediately stop the breaking of the war, and to stop their probable collaboration. Yes, they hoped it to be a 'Blitz Krieg'/'A short war'. They rushed, and I believe, they were hot-headed in their response. War lasted 4 long years.

Back on the topic.

I believe that Rudolf was a really smart young man, he was well-educated, he foresaw the tumult of the unhappy events that were to come. I remember that he said something like ' Dark times are to come...'. Ohh yes, he was correct. On the one side, I understand that he was somehow 'the misfit', with completely different views and ideas on the world, he was liberal and so on, on another side, I think that he could have done some efforts for his ideas to come true. I said 'the misfit' because he, it seems, lived in another, future time than his contemporaries at that time.

He terribly needed love and support, and the most important, understanding. Who knows what must have happened in his tired head and his heart in those terrible January days of 1889? I just think that he had an, how to say, escaping/hiding nature in himself. Too many dark things surrounding him. Maybe I am wrong, If I am , please correct me. (I am not the one who can judge about him). That great pressure on him from the Court, then cold welcome by some people and so on....But I am sure in one thing - he wasn't finished on the Earth. He had many things to do. He left his daughter fatherless.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 10:10:17 AM by Svetabel »
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Offline Imperial_Grounds

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #434 on: September 03, 2010, 01:10:02 AM »
The only thing I'm certain of is the nature of the suicide letters did not match the suicide scene and I don't believe Rudolf was so insane that he was beyond all reason.
However, the best argument I know for suicide is that Rudolf had little parental love as a small child.  Although both his parents probably did love him, for whatever reason, they didn't demonstrate it while he was alive.  I'm not sure his wowwow or Latour or others offered enough support of the parental kind, in fact I doubt they felt they had the authority to do so. 


Well, I never believed that Rudolf was insane, far from it... Depressed, certainly, but not insane. And also, we seem to forget what Mary wrote to her former governess about her relationship with Rudolf - about the ring, which Countess Larisch also claimed to have seen, the suicide pact - even though that was probably taken as a teenage girl's fantasy -, she even wrote that she and Rudolf belonged together body in soul now, around the 13th of January I believe - I'm to check my books on this - and for me, that makes her suicide letters believable, the way of writing is exactly the same...

Also, some of Rudolf's suicide letters were written before he left for Mayerling.... So, why would he do that if he did not intend to kill himself...
Learn To Live With My Darker Side