Author Topic: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death  (Read 170061 times)

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Offline Imperial_Grounds

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #525 on: October 08, 2010, 06:42:02 AM »
Well, we know Rudolf infected his wife and numerous others... It is amazing that in those days men could have as much affairs as they wanted, while women would have been condemned greatly. Also, Franz might have had an STD but still there is no proof. We must not forget that Elisabeth didn't like sex and such and that eventually she used it as a means to get her way. Also we must not forget that Elisabeth traveled a great deal before the Hungarian Coronation and that it her travels only expanded over the years. This also may partly be a reason why there were no more children, and also it must have been awful for her she could not raise her own children at first and this might have prevented her from concieving - on purpose of course - after they got a Crown Prince. But Franz did have several mistresses for sure, which makes it hard to believe he wanted Rudolf to quit Mary, unless something went on behind the walls.
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Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #526 on: October 08, 2010, 08:34:06 AM »
In fact, back in those years, a man without mistress was weird as black pearls.

LOL!   And you know black pearls and diamonds were in great demand then in Austria.  

The assumption was that the archdukes were often required to marry for political reasons and not for love.  Consequently,  they were encouraged by the Court to have "sweet girls" as compensation and to contain their energies.  
« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 08:39:36 AM by Pezzazz »
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Offline Carolath Habsburg

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #527 on: October 08, 2010, 08:51:23 AM »
"Sweet" and "bold" girls who does thing that wives didnt do!

Other nice image of Rudolph in hussar uniform


 

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Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #528 on: October 08, 2010, 10:15:57 AM »
That photo of Rudolf is so sad -- it was taken about 3 years before he died in the spring of 1886 when he was quite sick.   Here's some photos taken after the one above which show more of his Imperial Boldness, ;)



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Offline Imperial_Grounds

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #529 on: October 08, 2010, 10:40:30 AM »
You really see Rudolf is ill on that picture, the look is so haunting. Also, I have several pictures in a book of the last session he did. Strange that those are exactly my favorites of him.
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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #530 on: October 08, 2010, 11:34:55 AM »
Sad pictures of Rudolf. Yes his parents did travel, but that shouldn't prevent Franz & Sisi having sex togather unless she finds out that something was not going right. The fact that he had infected her in any way (even mildly) would have sent someone as sensative as Sisi into a tailspin. She did not want him to touch her or even in the same room alone with her unless her own family members were with her (when she came back). Only gradually did she allow Franz to couple with her after Hungary. Because Sisi did not have a hand to raise Rudolf, he had the same mistakes as his father and cousins. Had Sisi been fond of Stephanie, she could have warned her, but she took an intense dislike on her (perhaps remembering her aunt Charlotte).

Offline Carolath Habsburg

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #531 on: October 08, 2010, 11:44:44 AM »
Eric,....there are  A LOT  of reasons why Elisabeth didnt want to have intimacy with Franz Josef

1)She just didnt like sex, just like Eugenie and other women of the era who had terrible experiences with it. Remember , in that era Female orgasms "didnt exist", and for mostly of woman it was a disgusting duty to do. I know about this cause i ve spend years studying Victorian and edwardian era.

3)As a "sensitive woman" she was upset to know he was having affairs . I can imagine her being angry and disgusted to share man with another woman, if she was a jealous woman

4)You reckon that Elisabeth would "forget" FJ`s "supposed STD" just want he wanted to get something?. You re trying to say that she maybe she would put in jeopardy her health to get what she wanted?

5)According to my first point of view, she already gave him an heir and saw her work done. Maybe she enjoyed more of her travels and another activities instead being pregnant and have children and thats why she avoided her husband.

For the mortality of STD of that era, if FJ  had one (i doubt it) he lived WAY TO MUCH and for what i ve read and seen in images, he was a very active and busy man.

 

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Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #532 on: October 08, 2010, 11:46:17 AM »
You really see Rudolf is ill on that picture, the look is so haunting. Also, I have several pictures in a book of the last session he did. Strange that those are exactly my favorites of him.

He doesn't look well in that photo and the captions have said it was taken in 1886 when he was ill.

I'd love to see images of the last photo session Rudolf had.  I've seen a drawing of a photo from that last session, but of course the drawings or paintings never capture that special charm of Rudolf.  
« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 11:48:59 AM by Pezzazz »
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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #533 on: October 08, 2010, 12:02:47 PM »
Katenka...All respects to your opinion.

However I do have to point out that the demise of physical affection between Sisi & Franz was very sudden if you read any book on Sisi dealing with that period.

1. You are right about Sisi not liking sex, but she did like getting close to Franz and early letters & diaries show that she wanted her husband all to herself and made time for the two togather. In fact shortly before the collapse she was still writing affection notes to Franz.

2. Yes, she was a jealous woman and to Sisi her only ally in the Schonbrunn/Holfburg. The betrayal must have been hard pill for her to bear...but to afflict her in any way would havestrain the nerves of a sensative woman like Sisi. She redrew completely from him. You can actually date this period.

3. No of course. Sisi would have to be sure that he is "clean" before she would subject herself to reunited with him. Franz had pleaded with her through letters and also sent Nene to beg her to return. Sisi came back a Queen and her husband a slave. However he must have played a good acting part as she never realised he had another mistress during the time she was gone...

4.Not really. For example Valerie was the example of love of being reunited with her husband and her work for Hungary. You seem to forget that Sisi had a big family and would probably would want more children had not Archduchess Sofie being in the way.

Franz Josef was busy...but not too busy for a mistress & sex.

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #534 on: October 08, 2010, 12:10:13 PM »
I mean busy and active for bein a supposed "ill man". Remember that  there was no cure for mostly of the STD of the era (AKA Gonorrea ,Syphillis )

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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #535 on: October 08, 2010, 12:18:34 PM »
I think it was a mild form of STD...maybe even lice...something curable. I remember reading about he was usually provided with "hygenie countesses" for his amusement before his marriage to Sisi.

Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #536 on: October 08, 2010, 01:16:17 PM »
Speaking of Sisi and her sex life, there were many rumors of an affair with Bay Middleton, and Middleton and Rudolf actually had a falling out over the former's  relationship with the Empress in London when Rudolf was ~ age 20.  Undoubtedly, Middleton acquired a good deal of information about Rudolf from the Empress.  Middleton always stated with great authority that the Empress insisted her only son had been murdered, and it was over a love affair with someone other than Mary Vetsera.  Here's an excerpt from a statement by Middleton about Rudolph:

Quote
.............he  lived at far too great a pace, and was a wreck when death carried him off.  How could anyone suppose that a man with such a character would lay violent hands on himself?  It takes moral courage to commit suicide, particularly when love, which implies deep feelings, is the cause.  You'll search in vain for anything like that in Rudolf.

This was from the book, "The Emperor Francis Joseph and his Times" by Lieutenant General Baron von Margutti C.V.O written in 1921.  The problem with this quote is that the author claimed it came from a conversation he had with Bay Middleton as an old man in 1915, but alas, Middleton was killed in a riding accident about 15 years before this supposed conversation.  

However, Margutti the author was an aide-de-camp in the Dept of the Imperial Household for 17 years, and he probably heard things so Middleton may have actually said something like that since there was bad blood between Rudolf and Middleton.   Nonetheless, it is a good example how inventive people could be when telling "the truth" about Rudolf's life.  
« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 01:28:59 PM by Pezzazz »
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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #537 on: October 08, 2010, 01:48:19 PM »
I think that was what Bay thought of Rudolf than perhaps the actual truth.

Offline Imperial_Grounds

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #538 on: October 08, 2010, 03:43:29 PM »
And Bay and Elisabeth never were proven to have had an affair.... I don't think Elisabeth had an affair with him. She doesn't seem the woman to have one in my opinion.
Also one wonders what the relationship between Elisabeth and Andrassy was. I am certain it wasn't anything sexual... Just a mutual goal, something that bound them for life.
It is said that Elisabeth was flirtatious, however none of her friendships would lead to an affair it is believed, and used her beauty and grace to get what she wanted. We know this is true.

You are right about Sisi not liking sex, but she did like getting close to Franz and early letters & diaries show that she wanted her husband all to herself and made time for the two togather. In fact shortly before the collapse she was still writing affection notes to Franz.

Exactly... As I stated, the marriage started out as the fairytale it often is implied to be.... But soon all of that turned into something more tragic with Elisabeth and her relationship with Sophie, her struggle with life at court and eventually the affair Franz must have had. As a young woman she must have been heartbroken about this, but later on she simply thought she could not ask her husband to live alone for her sake. Also, though the marriage had its troubles, the couple wrote endlessly towards each other and very often their letters are really affectionate and filled with love and kindness. This was not only the case in the early years, but also near the end of Elisabeth's life and all those countless times she was away.... If I remember correctly she herself mentioned - or wrote - that whenever she was away from her husband she would miss him, but that whenever they were near they would never know what to talk about and how to act around each other because of the strained relationship between them... All this is a tragedy on its own. And all this is partly thanks to Archduchess Sophie, since she wanted Sisi to do her will and tried to crush Elisabeth(though most likely not on purpose, she just wanted Elisabeth to play the role of Empress as she saw it fit), also this lead to Elisabeth's bad state when she was at court, the anxiety of all those forces working against her, her children whom she was not allowed to see often, whom she had no part in raising up until she found out what happend with her son, and all this too made Elisabeth to the woman who she was near the end of her life. If Elisabeth would have had the chance to become the Empress she wanted to be, she might have been a great Consort - no matter how shy she was.

I think it was a mild form of STD...maybe even lice...something curable. I remember reading about he was usually provided with "hygenie countesses" for his amusement before his marriage to Sisi.

I remember reading that too, about the chance that Franz had transmitted a mild form of STD onto his wife. It does make sense, but she was not well before that either because of her life at court and the fact she had a hard time dealing with it, I think the infidelity of her husband must have been the last drop.
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Offline Linnie

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #539 on: October 08, 2010, 05:11:54 PM »
It is nice to see the Robert Pachmann's story discussed here. A few years back, I had mentioned it, only to be dismissed. The thread that I started was subsequently erased.

I have found what looks like the guide to an exbibit on Crown Prince Rudolph that mentions pictures and documents showing that Rudolph had acknowledged Robert Pachmann as his son.
http://tiny.cc/51gdk
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