Author Topic: The diamond brooch Nicholas gave her in 1884  (Read 20761 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Sunny

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 828
  • Царь Николай, твоё имя - любовь
    • View Profile
Re: The diamond brooch Nicholas gave her in 1884
« Reply #45 on: May 03, 2011, 12:02:24 AM »
I do think that posters here - whatever their views, real or imputed - have a right to be treated with tolerance; this is especially true of the younger posters - and there are individuals here (not you) who take pleasure in belittling them.

I have to confess i felt a little... intimidate, not due to a specific reply, of course, but, i would say, from the tone the discussion took; i mean, when the discussion went specific on hictorical sources, right quotes and something like that, i felt in was no more able yo write in this discussion, 'cause i'm not so keen in quoting books, and so on. i believed the discussion was, from that moment on, for those who better know about historical sources, so i just read, for i'm curious.
I specify: there's not A POST in particular, A POSTER in particular that made me feel like this! It was just a feeling for the general atmosphere  :)

That's why, Alixz, i've wrote that i trust certain historians; because i'm not an expert, and, among the mass of experts, i found someone i think has done a good job. You said they have taken their info from somewhere; of course, you're right, but i'm not able in this things, and i believe that certain historians are trustworthy because they showed they have studied all the possible sources and just report facts, avoiding personal judgments. But, as i said, i'm not an expert, and you're right saying one must go beyond - but i've not the instruments and knowledge to do it. You have, and i admire you for this. So, i thank you, and know i'd love to be as able as you to manage historical side of discussions!

But i felt intimidate before, and stopped posting; i really wanted you all to know, because maybe it's my fault - 'im to sensitive and to shy, and, of course, i'm romantic, and saw better the romantic side of this discussion, just because i'm not good in the historical one.Maybe Janet is right (that's why I quoted her), that's all because i'm a Newbie, and most of times and don't post when i would like to because i don't know enough about a certain subject, or can't quote historical sources, or i know my english isn't good enough to make me understand... in the end, i'm so happy so be here, because i feel i'll learn so much about these subjects and, who knows, maybe i'll became an expert in historical sources!  :)

But know sorry to everyone for my OT, we were back at the brooch!

I wonder why Nicholas gave it to Ksenia/Xenia in the first place!

Maybe he just didn't want to give it back to Mf? Just guessing, i've no logical idea!
Please visit my site
http://thelostworldofnaotmaa.wordpress.com/

Banner courtesy of GD Ally

Alixz

  • Guest
Re: The diamond brooch Nicholas gave her in 1884
« Reply #46 on: May 03, 2011, 09:24:34 AM »
Sunny - I am sorry.  I never wanted to make you feel intimidated.  Especially not by me.  I was most likely irritable that day and I have no right to take that out on you or anyone else.

FA likes to have everyone, especially the newbies, come here to learn and post.  He firmly believes that any one of us could be the next author to write a definitive biography and that any one could find the information that will set the rest of the academic world on its collective ear!

Please accept my apology and please keep posting.

Alixz

  • Guest
Re: The diamond brooch Nicholas gave her in 1884
« Reply #47 on: May 03, 2011, 09:31:25 AM »
As to why Nicholas would have given the brooch to Xenia.  Perhaps he was embarrassed when Alix gave it back and didn't know what to do with it.  He may have not wanted to give it back to his mother as she would have recognized it and asked questions that a 16 year old wouldn't want to answer.

By giving it to Xenia, he disposed of the problem.

Before this thread was started, I honestly never gave much thought to how old Xenia was at the time and I didn't realize that she was only about 9.  It was a good catch by the original poster and an interesting one.

Offline Sunny

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 828
  • Царь Николай, твоё имя - любовь
    • View Profile
Re: The diamond brooch Nicholas gave her in 1884
« Reply #48 on: May 04, 2011, 06:45:18 AM »
Alixz - don't worry, i have never been angry with you or something! Don't nedd to apologize - and i think i won't never stop posting in here  :)

I think your opinion does make sense, even if, it's true, Xwenia was so little  :o
Please visit my site
http://thelostworldofnaotmaa.wordpress.com/

Banner courtesy of GD Ally

Offline Sunny

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 828
  • Царь Николай, твоё имя - любовь
    • View Profile
Re: The diamond brooch Nicholas gave her in 1884
« Reply #49 on: May 05, 2011, 06:10:30 AM »
I've found something!
It doesn't answer our question - why nicky gave the brooch to Xenia - but explains Xenia's fellings.
Here you are:

"(...) Before the family [of Ludwig] left, Nicholas gave Alix a small brooch. Shyly she accepted it, but then pressed it back into his hand during a children's party. A hurt Nicholas gave the brooch to Xenia who, not knowing what happened, accepted it cheerfully."

From "Once a Grand Duchess - Xenia, sister of Nicholas II" by J. Van der Kiste and C. Hall, 2003 - reprinting, page 21
Please visit my site
http://thelostworldofnaotmaa.wordpress.com/

Banner courtesy of GD Ally

Alixz

  • Guest
Re: The diamond brooch Nicholas gave her in 1884
« Reply #50 on: May 05, 2011, 10:03:25 AM »
That quote is used in many of the books written about Nicholas and Alexandra.

I just found it in Nicholas and Alexandra by Massie but unfortunately, he doesn't give a source for the information and doesn't even show it as a quote.

Unfortunately Van Der Kriste and Hall don't give a source for where  they got it either.  

The wording is almost exactly the same as in Massie's book and so I thought that Van Der Kriste & Hall might have taken it from there, but if they did they didn't source it that way.  They show no source at all for the information.

Both Van Der Kriste & Hall and Massie use Poliakoff as a source, but Poliakoff doesn't even address this issue in his book on Alexandra The Tragic Bride and so it looks like neither Van Der Kriste & Hall or Massie got the original information from him.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2011, 10:06:09 AM by Alixz »

Alixz

  • Guest
Re: The diamond brooch Nicholas gave her in 1884
« Reply #51 on: May 05, 2011, 10:19:45 AM »
I have taken the liberty as moderator to remove the insensitive and unnecessary give and take between myself and another poster.  I did not do it to make anyone look good or bad, but just to get the flow of this thread back on course and to allow future readers to enjoy the discussion without the disruption caused by the off topic material.

I hope that no one minds and that everyone understands that I only did this to keep the thread on track.  There was nothing in the posts that were removed that had anything to do with the brooch.

Alixz

Alixz

  • Guest
Re: The diamond brooch Nicholas gave her in 1884
« Reply #52 on: May 05, 2011, 10:26:22 AM »
Well, since R did say it was a diamond brooch, and now we know that is probably not true, I'll leave the original title as is, since that is part of the question...



I don't think that anyone has yet discovered if the brooch of 1884 was diamond or not.  We only have Radzinsky's word on it and it could have been diamond.  Even Radzinsky could be right on occasion. LOL!

We know for certain that the brooch given in 1894 was diamond and it was "Nicky's Tear".  Poliakoff calls it a "modest brooch", but doesn't address what it was made of, but even a modest brooch could have diamonds.

But if a 12 carat diamond was found in the remains of the fire in Yekaterinburg and was supposed to be what was left of the brooch Nicholas gave to Alix in 1894 then "modest" is not quite how I would describe it!

« Last Edit: May 05, 2011, 10:37:38 AM by Alixz »

Offline Condecontessa

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 467
    • View Profile
Re: The diamond brooch Nicholas gave her in 1884
« Reply #53 on: May 05, 2011, 05:52:41 PM »
Does anyone konw the shape of the original brooch? There might be a meaning like a symbol about the shape of the brooch.

Offline CountessKate

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1083
    • View Profile
Re: The diamond brooch Nicholas gave her in 1884
« Reply #54 on: May 06, 2011, 04:07:30 AM »
Quote
We know for certain that the brooch given in 1894 was diamond and it was "Nicky's Tear".  Poliakoff calls it a "modest brooch", but doesn't address what it was made of, but even a modest brooch could have diamonds.

According to Richard Hough in 'Louis and Victoria', who gives no specific reference for this information but did have access to the Broadlands archive and, as previously mentioned, interviewed Princess Alice on this and other subjects, in June 1894 Nicholas presented Alexandra with engagement presents at Windsor "watched by the Queen and Louis and Victoria" consisting of amongst other things, "an immense sapphire and diamond brooch and a chain bracelet decorated with a huge emerald.  He also presented her with the Tsar's engagement present, a great Faberge sautoir of pearls which had cost him a quarter of a million golden roubles, Faberge's biggest ever single order...."  "Nicky's Goodbye Tear" which Alexandra showed to Princess Alice was given to her when Nicholas left England for Russia in mid-July.  So perhaps the 12 carat diamond retrieved from the fire was from the "immense" sapphire and diamond brooch also given as an engagement present in 1894 - Alexandra was very likely to have taken all or most of her engagement jewellery with her as it seems to have consisted of the sort of portable items which could be hidden in clothing without too much trouble.  If it was an engagement brooch, it seems unlikely that it would have been the one Nicholas offered to Alexandra when she was 12 as it would have been very unseemly for him to offer her an 'immense' piece of jewellery at that point, whether or not he could afford it. 

Offline Janet Ashton

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 719
  • www.directarticle.org
    • View Profile
    • Direct Article
Re: The diamond brooch Nicholas gave her in 1884
« Reply #55 on: May 07, 2011, 10:16:30 AM »
I have taken the liberty as moderator to remove the insensitive and unnecessary give and take between myself and another poster.  I did not do it to make anyone look good or bad, but just to get the flow of this thread back on course and to allow future readers to enjoy the discussion without the disruption caused by the off topic material.

I hope that no one minds and that everyone understands that I only did this to keep the thread on track.  There was nothing in the posts that were removed that had anything to do with the brooch.

Alixz


No problem.
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you -
Ye are many; they are few.

Offline Janet Ashton

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 719
  • www.directarticle.org
    • View Profile
    • Direct Article
Re: The diamond brooch Nicholas gave her in 1884
« Reply #56 on: May 07, 2011, 10:25:17 AM »
That quote is used in many of the books written about Nicholas and Alexandra.

I just found it in Nicholas and Alexandra by Massie but unfortunately, he doesn't give a source for the information and doesn't even show it as a quote.

Unfortunately Van Der Kriste and Hall don't give a source for where  they got it either.  

The wording is almost exactly the same as in Massie's book and so I thought that Van Der Kriste & Hall might have taken it from there, but if they did they didn't source it that way.  They show no source at all for the information.

Both Van Der Kriste & Hall and Massie use Poliakoff as a source, but Poliakoff doesn't even address this issue in his book on Alexandra The Tragic Bride and so it looks like neither Van Der Kriste & Hall or Massie got the original information from him.

It's Vyrubova. Both Massie and Corine Hall/John van der Kiste (and indeed GK also for that matter) quote her almost verbatim. It's on page 19 of her book. They all say that N gave A a "pretty little" brooch and that he passed it to Xenia "who, not knowing its history, accepted it cheerfully". I imagine that she later simply lost or broke it, but Alix remembered the incident enough to tell both Toni Becker and - later  Ania - about it.

Obviously brooches remained significant to N and A, because not only did they feature among the engagement gifts (and as you say, they were a popular gift at the time, so he may have given one anyway), but she mentioned the engagement brooch specifically on their anniversary and to let him know that she was wearing it. Like Countess Kate, I think that the "goodbye tear" brooch was another one again, which he gave her when he left England in 1894.

I think Radzinsky is putting two and two together and making about 100 - he knows a diamond brooch was found in Ekaterinburg; he knows she had one as an engagement present; he may even have noticed that Minnie gave Irene and Alix brooches when they arrived in Russia in 1884, so he extrapolates that the brooch N. gave to Alix in 1884 came from his mother originally and was one of great value and the same as the one which he then gave back to her in 1894! If anyone is interested enough they could try to contact him to ask for any further info he has, though when Jamie Cockfield did this in connection with Nikolai Mikhailovich's diaries and something R. asserted about hem he got no reply. Some authors are better than others at responding to readers and other researchers!
« Last Edit: May 07, 2011, 10:32:05 AM by Janet Ashton »
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you -
Ye are many; they are few.

Offline MademoiselleAndrea

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 536
  • Take me as you find me, all my fears and failures.
    • View Profile
    • Past A La Mode: A Presentation and Celebration of Historical Fashion
Re: The diamond brooch Nicholas gave her in 1884
« Reply #57 on: May 07, 2011, 11:28:34 AM »
Oh, Minnie gave Alix and Irene each brooches when they arrived in Russia? I never knew that. Could someone elaborate?
Quote
Minnie gave Irene and Alix brooches when they arrived in Russia in 1884
When I stand before God at the end of my life, I would hope that I would not have a single bit of talent left, and could say, "I used everything You gave me". --Erma Bombeck

Alixz

  • Guest
Re: The diamond brooch Nicholas gave her in 1884
« Reply #58 on: May 07, 2011, 11:54:04 AM »
Interesting.  I wonder, since I think that Vyrubova would have gotten the information from Alexandra, how Alexandra would know that Xenia would have "accepted the brooch cheerfully".

After Alix gave the brooch back to Nicholas, would he have told her that he gave it to his sister?  Maybe he did.  But I wonder when he would have.  Perhaps in 1894 as they spent time together and perhaps spoke of times past?  Maybe Alix asked Nicholas,"What did you ever do with that brooch that I childishly gave back to when when I was 12?"  and he told he he gave it to Xenia.

But I wonder why both Massie and Van Der Kriste & Hall would have used that quote and not sourced it in their books to Vyrobuva?

I have never seen any mention of it in any books about Xenia, but then I have never read her diaries (if they are available) or any other source materials on her.

I have a membership to Broadlands Archives, but in a move about 7 years ago, I misplaced my papers.  One day I will have to take the time to find them and get back to researching there.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2011, 11:56:15 AM by Alixz »

Offline James_Davidov

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 246
    • View Profile
Re: The diamond brooch Nicholas gave her in 1884
« Reply #59 on: July 24, 2011, 07:25:50 AM »
This is a little off track, but I was raised to never accept extravagant gifts, and to accompany even the smallest of gifts with feigns of 'you really shouldn't have'.  I know that this  specifically Victorian approach (although common in many cultures) to generosity.

I haven't the slightest doubt that at her age, as a young lady, she would have rejected a diamond broach from the Tsarevitch.  European visitors to the Romanov court were also very conscious of how extremely wealthy their counter parts were, and a genuine English Victorian would have been very careful to save face by not being seen to take advantage of any extravagant gestures.
You are a member of the British royal family. We are never tired, and we all love hospitals.
Queen Mary