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Topic: Odd Diary Entree from the book -the Diary of Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaievna 1913  (Read 11372 times)
Reply #15
« on: July 09, 2011, 08:47:40 AM »
blessOTMA Offline
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When I first read this passage , I was thinking how only Grigory Yefimovich could say this without Alix throwing him out! lol!  ...unless he and Alix had been discussing it before? ...but it IS an odd comment to make during a  AP visit, which  as Olga notes, her father is present as well.... so everyone is there...and she notes how Grigory Yefimovich kept patting Alexei's on the head Strange juxtaposition of his comment and gesture...like he was pondering something . We often do repetitive actions then . It's hard to forgive Kyril  marching his troops over to the revolutionaries and now  his descendants want  what he willingly gave away then? A good part  of what happen found its source in the unstobbale , but inept , Vladimirovich ambition forever on the boil.
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Reply #16
« on: July 09, 2011, 09:09:07 AM »
Robert_Hall Offline
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Kyril's actions are widely misunderstood.  He was doing what Nicholas and Michael both told him to do- support the provisional government. In the end, it did no good, he fared not much better, except he got out with his life.
 In any case, back to Olga and her diary. I have not read the book [just orderd it today] but I find these interpretations a bit suspicious.
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Reply #17
« on: July 10, 2011, 04:53:11 AM »
Kalafrana Offline
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Mikhail's marriage would not prevent him from succeeding. It simply meant that George Brasov, and any other children he might have had by Natalie, were outside the succession.

The parallel is Archduke's Franz Ferdinand. He was Franz Josef's heir presumptive (presumptive because it was theoretically possible that FRanz Josef would marry again and have a son), but his sons could not succeed.

Ann
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Reply #18
« on: July 10, 2011, 05:11:43 AM »
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Kyril's actions are widely misunderstood.  He was doing what Nicholas and Michael both told him to do- support the provisional government. In the end, it did no good, he fared not much better, except he got out with his life.
 In any case, back to Olga and her diary. I have not read the book [just orderd it today] but I find these interpretations a bit suspicious.

I had read - but i'm not so sure, so if i'm wrong, please, correct me - that Kirill not only supported the Provisional Governement (that wasn't so bad) but he supported THE BOLSHIES going around in the streets of Petrograd with a red cloth around his arm. But maybe it's only a legend, so if it is, i hope you can tell me! If it were true, it would be really horrible.

Sorry for my OT.
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Reply #19
« on: July 10, 2011, 08:21:04 AM »
Alixz
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Since there were a whole crew of Empresses before Paul I, why did the church not complain about them?

Certainly every Empress from Catherine I through Catherine II went through coronation with the approval of the church.  Why then would Olga not be accepted?

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Reply #20
« on: July 10, 2011, 08:46:47 AM »
Robert_Hall Offline
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Those empresses were not consecrated.  And in those times, Peter 1 effectively castrated the Church. It was powerless.  By the time of Nicholas II, it had regained control of most of it's affairs.
 And the red armband, it was not exclusive to the Bolsheviks. They had not even come into power yet. It was a mark of  radical change, much like the French, or any other revolution. There are many interpretations as to what it symbolises, but it is not exclusive to the Bolsheviks.
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Reply #21
« on: July 10, 2011, 05:55:03 PM »
blessOTMA Offline
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The French ambassador, Maurice Paléologue recorded  Kyril surrendered  his Marines of the Guards on March 14, 1917.  Nicholas II was still Tsar,  there was  no new government to support...only one to help create... Nicholas II  abdicated the next day,  15 March 1917 and his brother the next day . It's not unreasonable to think Kyril 's betrayal played some part in these decisions ... perhaps Nicholas  should have let Kyril  marry Ducky without a fuss .
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Reply #22
« on: July 11, 2011, 12:50:04 AM »
Sunny Offline
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And the red armband, it was not exclusive to the Bolsheviks. They had not even come into power yet. It was a mark of  radical change, much like the French, or any other revolution. There are many interpretations as to what it symbolises, but it is not exclusive to the Bolsheviks.

Thanks very much, robert. i hadn't think to that possibility!

It's not unreasonable to think Kyril 's betrayal played some part in these decisions ... perhaps Nicholas  should have let Kyril  marry Ducky without a fuss .

I think it was alix who was disturbeed by K and ducky's marriage. She was her cousin, she had married her beloved brother, and she had broken the rules to marry another cousin, who was orthodox, knowing that she couldn'yt because the law didin't let direct cousins to marry; Alix was very repectful of moral laws (she was a real victorian woman!!) and i think she didn't like ducky for this.
Of course i'm pointing aout alix's POV: i really don't think divorce from  someone you don't love is a crime!!!
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Reply #23
« on: July 11, 2011, 02:38:07 AM »
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By the coronation, the Emperor was not consecrated a priest; he only took communion as do priests for the fist and last time in his life. Then tsars receive communion like all laymen.
In my poor opinion, the whole story with Rasputin looked a little more simple like: I thought it was something like a half serious joke about Olga's character and aptitude, but certainly not a discussion about laws ans politicals change... Why not? Nicholas did nothing to seriously prepare his daughter to be a rulling Empress. Olga Nicholaevna and her sisters were certainly well prepared to be good consorts and grand duchesses, but they knew nothing about rulling. I am very suspicisous with the stories about Nicholas II discussing politicals matters with the "clever Olga".
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Reply #24
« on: July 11, 2011, 03:32:43 AM »
Alixz
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Ducky and Kyrill violated more that just Alix's moral codes.

We may not see divorce from someone we don't love as nothing to fuss over, but Victorians did see it that way.  If you remember Ducky and Ernst waited until after Queen Victoria died to get their divorce, In my opinion, they were afraid of trying to get a divorce while QV was still alive.

On a personal level, Ducky hurt Ernst and that would anger Alix perhaps even more that the moral codes involved.  Ducky also left her child by Ernst, who was Alix's niece, when she divorced. (I know there was joint custody as we would call it today.)

First cousins could not marry in Russia by church or secular law.  Ducky and Ernst broke all of the laws and Nicholas has every right to strip Kyrill of his privileges.  Alix as a sister, cousin and Empress had every right to be angry.

And as we have already pointed out, Marie Pavlovna did not convert until after her children were born and so they should not have even been a small consideration in the line of succession.

As for Olga becoming Empress if something happened to Alexei.  I do believe that Nicholas would look into alternatives in case he either had no other male heir or Alexei died young. 

Nicholas's typhus illness in 1901while Alix was pregnant and no one knew that it would be a girl and then the actuality of Alexei having hemophilia had both Nicholas and Alix worried about the succession.  It would have only been prudent for Nicholas to have looked into the matter and have a Ukase written and ready to be proclaimed and published.

Too bad that Olga and Dmitri Pavlovich had not been a match before the death of Rasputin.  In 1916, Olga was 20.  She could have been married at 18 to Dmitri thus making her a more secure option for the line of succession.  Dmitri was Nicholas's first cousin not Olga's so there should not have been any problem with a married from that quarter.  Also that marriage would keep Olga in Russia, which is what she wanted.
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Reply #25
« on: July 11, 2011, 06:31:10 AM »
Robert_Hall Offline
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I stand corrected, Matushka.
  Alixz, very good points, but, as has been well documented, Alexandra did hold vindictive grudges,  just like a lot of more common folk.
 I remain suspicious, however, as Matushka mentioned, of the whole Olga affair.
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Reply #26
« on: July 11, 2011, 08:59:23 AM »
Olga Bernice Offline
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By the coronation, the Emperor was not consecrated a priest; he only took communion as do priests for the fist and last time in his life. Then tsars receive communion like all laymen.
In my poor opinion, the whole story with Rasputin looked a little more simple like: I thought it was something like a half serious joke about Olga's character and aptitude, but certainly not a discussion about laws ans politicals change... Why not? Nicholas did nothing to seriously prepare his daughter to be a rulling Empress. Olga Nicholaevna and her sisters were certainly well prepared to be good consorts and grand duchesses, but they knew nothing about rulling. I am very suspicisous with the stories about Nicholas II discussing politicals matters with the "clever Olga".

Of course, I'm not going to be a huge help on this, but what if Nicholas just needed a "backup plan"? If Alexei died from hemophilia in Nicholas's lifetime, Nicholas would still be tsar, so he could put the Ukaze into action, and get Olga ready for succession. Hence the reason he discussed matters of politics with Olga, to get her ready should something happen to her younger brother. If Alexei outlived Nicholas (and if the revolution and murder hadn't happened, of course), then hopefully he would have gotton married and produced an heir before he had another attack and died.

I think the fact that Nicholas might have been subtly preparing Olga for possible succession to the throne is a possible, if not probable, choice. If I am wrong, please correct me - I still have much to learn on the succession rules of Romanov Russia.
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Reply #27
« on: July 11, 2011, 09:12:49 AM »
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You are not the only one, OB. Some of us have been  debating and discussing this you decades ! I, personally, am of the legitmist camp. I do not believe Kyril betrayed, nor do I think Nicholas II would have altered the succession.
  Not to deprecate Olga, so much, but we must admit, she was extremely sheltered & isolated.  She would not have had any support, despite Nicolas' wishes, from the military, Church  or government.   Naming her heir would have just hastened the end of the Romanov rule. IMO.
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Reply #28
« on: July 11, 2011, 08:07:28 PM »
blessOTMA Offline
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I think it was alix who was disturbeed by K and ducky's marriage.
Whomever of the Imperial couple was upset about Kyril  and Ducky marrying , Nicholas gave the order of banishment and Kyril  father , Grand Duke Vladimir, came to Nicholas  to  express his anger about it in the bitterest of terms.

The timing of Kyril  and Ducky's marriage is of interest as it was in 1905. Well after Ducky's 1901  divorce and  also more importantly, after Alexei Nikolaevich's birth. With the birth of an heir , Kyril 's  path to the throne was now  not so clear.....there was now much more than Michael ahead of him. It was well known Michael  had no interest in ruling ...and so after an  heir was born,  Kyril and the divorced Ducky married. Divorce is not a crime, but I think it would disqualify you from becoming an Empress... and that, imo , would be an issue for Kyril while there was good chance Alix would only produce girls.

Olga Nikolaevna may not have been prepared for the throne ...but it's fascinating how in 1916 Marie Pavlovna seem to think Olga  as wife to the  shop worn Boris could add legitimacy to the Vladimirovich cause in the coming crisis. ( which everyone seemed to sense ,save  for the Imperial couple) Why else would she seek such a marriage at that late hour ? Something was up and Marie tipped her hand badly there. 

Also I sometimes think Dmitri Pavlovich was placed  at the scene of Rasputin's  murder in part, in order to remove him as a possible rival to the Vladimirovich cause... If the Romanov family was serious about over throwing  Nicholas...and murdering Rasputin would indicate  they thought they  were, imo, Dmitri Pavlovich should  have been kept completely clear...  But did Kyril  ever explain what he thought he was doing in turning over his Marines before the Tsar had abdicated ? and did he really think the new order  would have any  use for a Grand Duke from a Empire that had ceased to exist?  Remarkable . 
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"Give my love to all who remember me."

  Olga Nikolaevna
Reply #29
« on: July 11, 2011, 10:57:58 PM »
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Annie, i have always thought Dmitrij Pavlovich + olga would have been a nice couple. Maybe not deep in love as N & Af, but they could have got on well. I am quite sure Dmitrij asked to marry Irina (i read it in Once a Grand Duchess) but it says also that he did that because he had tried to marry Olga but Alix had said no (that is strange, IMHO, because Alix liked dmitrij. Maybe she simple want her daughter next to her yet for a while, being the war and everything?).
Ok, i'm making a "Beautiful" of it, so sorry (i'm as romantic as Maria in this side  Roll Eyes) but that was to say i agree with you about Dmitrij's part in Rasputin's murder. I have always been quite sure someone had the interest to see him "fail" at alix's and nicky's eyes, since they loved him so much - and maybe he could even marry their first born.
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