Author Topic: What was Alexandra's Native Language and Maiden Name?  (Read 33551 times)

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: What was Alexandra's Native Language and Maiden Name?
« Reply #75 on: April 22, 2014, 02:42:41 PM »
;D Thank you for the explanation. I wasn't aware of this change in the use of commas in English. Their use in German seems to have remained more or less as before.

My younger son, who majored in Rhetoric at UC Berkeley, was always crossing out my commas and reminding me that the use of commas had changed  so  I understood your position of Alexandra's commas.

AGRBear
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Offline Превед

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Re: What was Alexandra's Native Language and Maiden Name?
« Reply #76 on: April 22, 2014, 04:07:49 PM »
Interesting about the commas, but if she erred on the pedantic side (been there, done that - it's psychologically interesting!:-), other royals (e.g. QV, Queen Louise of Denmark, Empress Maria Fyodorovna) went overbord the other way, with long meandering sentences without full stops, underlines and multiple exclamation marks!!! E.g. We are not amused!!! Das amüsiert uns gar nicht!!!

Early 20th-century Danish linguist Otto Jespersen opined that while contemporary women were rather ignorant of the correct use of "proper punctuation" like commas, he characterized exactly those "emotional ones" as women's preferred punctuation marks, along with ellipsis (....)! :-)

In Great Britian, her father carried the following title Royal Highness  Louis IV of  Hesse and by Rhine:
HRH is a style, not a title. His title was Grand Duke. "Of Hesse and By Rhine" is the territorial designation.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 04:17:21 PM by Превед »
Березы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и березы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: What was Alexandra's Native Language and Maiden Name?
« Reply #77 on: April 23, 2014, 03:37:47 AM »
As a writer of English English, and an academic, I am inclined to favour more commas rather than fewer. Some of my students write very lengthy sentences, whose meanings are difficult to follow because of a lack of commas. I frequently find myself adding commas where I don't break up the sentences into two or even three (this is with dissertation students, whose work I see in draft at different stages).

We should bear in mind that wikipedia, while all right for general information, is not the most reliable on points of precision.

Ann

Offline Helen

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Re: What was Alexandra's Native Language and Maiden Name?
« Reply #78 on: April 23, 2014, 07:08:51 AM »
We should bear in mind that wikipedia, while all right for general information, is not the most reliable on points of precision.
That's true. However, even relatively modern books on English grammar state that restrictive attributive clauses are never preceded by a comma in writing, whereas non-restrictive attributive clauses are always preceded and followed by a comma. Alexandra regularly had restrictive attributive clauses preceded by a comma, as one would do in German.
"The Correspondence of the Empress Alexandra of Russia with Ernst Ludwig and Eleonore, Grand Duke and Duchess of Hesse. 1878-1916"  -  http://www.bod.de/index.php?id=296&objk_
"Grand Duke Ernst Ludwig and Princess Alix of Hesse and by Rhine in Italy - 1893"

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: What was Alexandra's Native Language and Maiden Name?
« Reply #79 on: April 23, 2014, 08:28:53 AM »
Helen

I was thinking of what wikipedia has to say on Ludwig IV's title, not English grammar.

Ann

Offline AGRBear

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Re: What was Alexandra's Native Language and Maiden Name?
« Reply #80 on: April 25, 2014, 05:59:58 PM »
That is correct: >>This style was only in effect in Great Britain<<

AGBear
« Last Edit: April 25, 2014, 06:15:26 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Превед

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Re: What was Alexandra's Native Language and Maiden Name?
« Reply #81 on: April 27, 2014, 07:10:10 PM »
English: Style / form of adress
French: Prédicat
German: Anrede / Prädikat
Russian: Титулирование, titulirovanie
Березы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и березы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline Clemence

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Re: What was Alexandra's Native Language and Maiden Name?
« Reply #82 on: April 29, 2014, 03:38:22 PM »
Who knows who first called Alexandra Alicky, I believe her parents called her Alix, probably Queen Victoria in order to distinguish her from Alix the Princess of Wales?

Found this on wikipedia:

Quote
Her family gave her the nicknames of "Alicky" (in order to distinguish her from her aunt, the Princess of Wales, who had the family nickname of Alix)[3]

 King, Greg Twilight of Splendor: The Court of Queen Victoria in Her Diamond Jubilee Year (John Wiley & Sons, 2007) pg. 52
'' It used to be all girls without clothes. Now it’s all clothes with no girls. Pity.''

Offline Превед

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Re: What was Alexandra's Native Language and Maiden Name?
« Reply #83 on: April 29, 2014, 03:56:52 PM »
Who knows who first called Alexandra Alicky, I believe her parents called her Alix, probably Queen Victoria in order to distinguish her from Alix the Princess of Wales?

Found this on wikipedia:

Quote
Her family gave her the nicknames of "Alicky" (in order to distinguish her from her aunt, the Princess of Wales, who had the family nickname of Alix)[3]

 King, Greg Twilight of Splendor: The Court of Queen Victoria in Her Diamond Jubilee Year (John Wiley & Sons, 2007) pg. 52

As we have noted earlier in this thread, this nickname used to distinguish her from her aunt was probably based on an infantile nickname, either her own pronunciation of her name or her siblings'. Because the consonant cluster -ks is hard for toddlers learning to speak, with k and s being difficult sounds by themselves too. (Indeed it's a wonder any toddler learns Slavic languages and that we don't speak Finnish all of us!) Alix will come out as Alic(y) or Alick(y) in baby speech.

Indeed, perhaps the name Alix / Alice was a Franconian princess's attempt at saying her name Adelheidis as a toddler? (Shortening long words is another feature of baby speech, just like dropping one or more consonants in a cluster.)
« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 04:20:20 PM by Превед »
Березы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и березы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline Ally Kumari

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Re: What was Alexandra's Native Language and Maiden Name?
« Reply #84 on: May 18, 2014, 07:11:52 AM »
Who knows who first called Alexandra Alicky, I believe her parents called her Alix, probably Queen Victoria in order to distinguish her from Alix the Princess of Wales?

Found this on wikipedia:

Quote
Her family gave her the nicknames of "Alicky" (in order to distinguish her from her aunt, the Princess of Wales, who had the family nickname of Alix)[3]

 King, Greg Twilight of Splendor: The Court of Queen Victoria in Her Diamond Jubilee Year (John Wiley & Sons, 2007) pg. 52

Was this the same reason why Princess Alexandra Georgievna was called "Aline"? Because I found her labeled as "Alix" on more than one occassion as well.

Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: What was Alexandra's Native Language and Maiden Name?
« Reply #85 on: August 16, 2014, 06:06:03 PM »
Reply #11 Note: Paulus was not a Von. It was the German 6th not the 8th army that was destroyed at Stalingrad.

Offline Превед

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Re: What was Alexandra's Native Language and Maiden Name?
« Reply #86 on: May 02, 2015, 06:57:27 PM »
There are a few examples of Alixes after the Middle Ages and before the name was revived by Princess Alice:

The Blessed Alix Le Clerc (1576 - 1622), a Lorrainian nun who founded the (Chanoinesses de Saint-Augustin de la) Congrégation Notre-Dame dedicated to the education of girls.
'Madame Alix', aka Léonne-Julie Bournonville (1748 - 1826), famous ballet dancer who also performed at the Mariinsky, aunt of Auguste Bournonville, married to Claude Alix de La Faye, dentist to the Queen of sweden.
(Françoise-)Alix de Lamartine (1776 - 1829), writer and mother of the famous poet Alphonse de Lamartine.
Alix Joffroy (1844 - 1908), French psychiatrist, NB a man. (Alix is also both a placename and a (rare) man's name in France.)

Another Alix, contemporary with Grand Duchess Alice:
The Belgian Countess Alix de Brouchoven de Bergeyck née Brouchoven de Bergeyck (1849-1880). Both her father, husband and sons were active in Belgian politics, so it's not unlikely that Grand Duchess Alice read about her or met her.

BTW she was the great grandmother of another Countess Alix - de Lannoy née della Faille de Leverghem, the mother of Hereditary Grand Duchess Stéphanie of Luxemburg. With Alix already established as a name in the Luxembourgian Grand-Ducal Family, I wonder if there will be another future grand-ducal Princess Alix - from Luxembourg. The Hereditary Grand Duchess's knowledge and study of Russian culture might perhaps add momentum to the prophecy.

Another descendant, Count Thomas de Brouchoven de Bergeyck, is a Belgian TV presenter doing a royalty news programme called Place Royale, some of it together with a journalist called Alix Battard!

En terminant sur une note plus basse, in Belgium there is even a female hockey player called Alix Gerniers!
« Last Edit: May 02, 2015, 07:18:27 PM by Превед »
Березы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и березы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: What was Alexandra's Native Language and Maiden Name?
« Reply #87 on: November 24, 2016, 12:08:50 PM »
Alexandra's name was Princess Alix of Hesse and by Rhine. As the daughter of the Grand Duke of Hesse and by Rhine, she did not have nor did she need a surname. Indeed, surnames are a rather recent invention in the civilized world. Prior to this, people used first names and at times the town or location name. So my friend of Ilana Miller would have been known as a royal as "Princess Ilana of Brentwood", or "Ilana, Princess of Brentwood".

Offline Превед

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Re: What was Alexandra's Native Language and Maiden Name?
« Reply #88 on: November 26, 2016, 10:33:45 AM »
Indeed, surnames are a rather recent invention in the civilized world. Prior to this, people used first names and at times the town or location name.

Surnames themselves are not a recent innovation: The Roman patricians used surnames (Gaius Julius Cæsar) in Antiquity and quite early in the Middle Ages (from the 11th century and onwards) urban patricians (Polo, de Medici, Fugger etc.) and feudal nobles (de Montmorency, von Riedesel) started using surnames. From ca. the Reformation and the accompanying better public records, we have evidence of hereditary surnames becoming common for burghers, i.e. the urban middle classes. Farmers were for a long time mostly registered with their patronymic and farm name (and the latter could change) and both urban and rural working classes (maids, labourers, servants etc.) were often just registered with first name and patronymic.  Though all classes, at least in urban environments, seem to have had surnames in 18th-century Britain, France, Germany and Russia. In the Netherlands they didn't become fixed untill the 19th century, in Scandinavia not untill the 20th century. On Iceland people still don't have surnames, but just use patronymics (like Russians, but without a proper surname).

So hereditary surnames (derived from a personal nickname (surnom in French), place of origin or habitation, occupation, patronymic or just ornamental / totemistic (as in Sweden and Russia) are a rather ancient phenomena, but its usage among the lower classes is a rather recent development.

Well-known example from Thuringia / Hesse:
The Reformator Martin Luther, born 1483 in Eisleben, was the son of the burgher Hans Luder, born 1459 in Möhra in Thuringia, where the Luder / Lüder / Ludter / Lauter family had lived since ca. 1300, when a knight called Wigand von Luder, i.e. Wigand from Luder, today Großenlüder, by Fulda in Hesse, settled there.

Well-known example from the Palatinate:
US President-elect Donald Trump's grandfather Friedrich Trump hailed from from Kallstadt in the Palatinate, where the Trump / Drumpf family had lived since 1608, when a lawyer called Hanns Drumpf (probably meaning "drum") settled there.

Although the surnames of many upper and middle class Central European and American families easily can be tracked back to the Reformation, it should be noted that surnames were alot more volatile the longer you go back: Consider the patrician, Knickerbockerish near-namesakes of Trump: The Dutch admirals Tromp. (Admiral Cornelis Tromp of Trompenburgh was even made a Danish count of now-Swedish Syllisborg / Sölvesborg, a somewhat more patrician argument for Trump's earlier claim of Swedish ancestry (substituting Karlstad for Kallstadt). Admiral Maarten Harpertszoon Tromp, born 1598, was the son of the naval officer Harpert Maertenz(oon) and he or his father assumed the name Tromp, derived from one of their ships called Olifantstromp, the Elephant Trunk.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2016, 10:47:05 AM by Превед »
Березы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и березы», 1843 / 1856)