Author Topic: Government starts effort to change succession law  (Read 27522 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline CHRISinUSA

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 844
    • View Profile
Government starts effort to change succession law
« on: October 12, 2011, 12:25:32 PM »
The AP is today reporting that David Cameron has written to the 15 other Commonwealth nations where the Queen is head of state, finally introducing a proposal to change the current laws of succession to allow the firstborn child of the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge to succeed regardless of gender, and to scrap the ban on the monarch marrying a Catholic. 

While acknowledging it will be a complex effort, the prime minister said the time had come to begin the process.  He plans to discuss the proposal when he meets with leaders from Commonwealth countries in Australia later this month.

And so it begins........

Offline Robert_Hall

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6649
  • a site.
    • View Profile
Re: Government starts effort to change succession law
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2011, 12:32:15 PM »
This is way overdue. I hope it progresses ahead  with little opposition.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Offline Martyn

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 7022
  • Martyn's Chips
    • View Profile
Re: Government starts effort to change succession law
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2011, 12:35:50 PM »
I second that.  High time that these arcane rules were put aside.
'For a galant spirit there can never be defeat'....Wallis Windsor

'The important things is not what they think of me, but what I think of them.'......QV

Offline CHRISinUSA

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 844
    • View Profile
Re: Government starts effort to change succession law
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2011, 12:50:31 PM »
I agree this is long overdue, and like you Robert, I hope that it progresses successfully to its stated end.  That is - simply to change the rules of succession to achieve gender equality and remove the Catholic ban, but nothing more.

My fear is that legal, political and/or public opinion floodgates may open along with the core debate.  Could this trigger some of the commonwealth realms to end the monarchy all together (particularly Canada and Australia)?  Or be used by factions in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland to call for a break up of the union?  

The last time each realm had to officially reach a decision on the succession was the Abdication - and all reached consensus with little serious objection or debate.  But that was a different era, and the nationalism of each realm and its people is also very different today.  The same outcome is by no means assured.

Offline RoyalWatcher

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 439
    • View Profile
Re: Government starts effort to change succession law
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2011, 07:42:41 PM »
Finally! I am so happy to see this initiative officially starting. I hope it can be done quickly...the commonwealth countries have had a very long time to think about it.

Does anyone know what the process is? Is it just a matter of drafting up the language and getting it approved by each of the commonwealth's PMs? Or, do the commonwealth governments take it to the people and have them vote on it? I wonder how long it took for the commonwealth to validate the abdication?

Offline RoyalWatcher

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 439
    • View Profile
Re: Government starts effort to change succession law
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2011, 08:14:32 PM »
What Mr. Cameron is proposing is the following:

(1) Ending male primogeniture. He is quoted as saying, "The first is the rule which says that an elder daughter should take a place in the line of succession behind a younger son. We espouse gender equality in all other aspects of life, and it is an anomaly that in the rules relating to the highest public office we continue to enshrine male superiority."

(2) Open the way for members of the Royal Family who marry a Roman Catholic being able to succeed to the Crown. In his letter to the 16 prime ministers, Mr. Cameron says "the rule is a historical anomaly as it does not apply to those who marry spouses of other faiths."

(3) He is calling for an end to the permission to marry rules, and limit to the first six in line to the throne those descendants of King George II who require the Monarch’s consent before they marry.

Among the laws which would need to be amended or repealed if the rule changes were agreed include:

  • the Bill of Rights 1688
  • the Coronation Oath Act 1688
  • Act of Settlement 1701
  • the Royal Marriages Act 1772

Source: The Telegraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/theroyalfamily/8822447/Royal-family-Cameron-begins-process-to-allow-first-born-daughters-to-accede-throne.html

Offline CHRISinUSA

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 844
    • View Profile
Re: Government starts effort to change succession law
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2011, 07:50:25 AM »
I wonder how long it took for the commonwealth to validate the abdication?

According to a BBC timeline, pretty quickly. 

On Nov 15 1936 Edward first told Baldwin of his intent to marry Mrs. Simpson; Baldwin replied that whomever the King marries becomes Queen and that the public would not accept Mrs. Simpson.  Edward first says that he is prepared to go. 

On Nov 25, Edward again calls for Baldwin and tells him he wants a morganatic marriage.  He authorizes Baldwin to raise the matter with the Cabinet and commonwealth.  Within 7 days (Dec 2) Baldwin returned to the King telling him that the cabinet and commonwealth rejected such a marriage.

9 Dec - Edward notifies government of his intent to abdicate.
10 Dec - Edward signs Instrument of Abdication.  Baldwin informs the Commons.
11 Dec - Abdication endorsed by Parliament.  Edward abdicates and George VI becomes King
10 Dec - 12 Dec - all the commonwealth realms approved the abdication (either their legislatures if they were in session, or governments)

So the whole actual process took about 2 to 2 1/2 weeks.  Pretty remarkable when you think of it.


Offline Kalafrana

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2912
    • View Profile
Re: Government starts effort to change succession law
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2011, 09:06:38 AM »
Bear in mind that the abdication was an emergency, and problems arose with the legislation afterwards because it was drafted in haste and rushed through Parliament.

Ann

Offline Emperor of the Dominions

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 195
    • View Profile
Re: Government starts effort to change succession law
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2011, 04:12:52 PM »
"My fear is that legal, political and/or public opinion floodgates may open along with the core debate.  Could this trigger some of the commonwealth realms to end the monarchy all together (particularly Canada and Australia)?  Or be used by factions in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland to call for a break up of the union?"

I can certainly see this could be a potential problem, but I believe the timing has been very well chosen to lessen the possibilities of this happening. Which of the Dominions or indeed Nations of the United Kingdom would use this as an exit visa with the Queen's popularity at an all time high; the Diamond Jubilee less than a year away and the fairytale romance and marriage of the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge still in recent memory?

R.I. 

God save the Queen !

Offline CountessKate

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1089
    • View Profile
Re: Government starts effort to change succession law
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2011, 06:20:59 AM »
Quote
Could this trigger some of the commonwealth realms to end the monarchy all together (particularly Canada and Australia)?  Or be used by factions in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland to call for a break up of the union?"

If the British government chose not to put in place a more equitable monarchy because one or any of the countries in the commonwealth might decide to exercise their democratic rights and not have a monarchy at all, we've come to a pretty pass.  There is undoubtedly a certain political cunning in the timing as the Emperor points out, but it's the right thing to do regardless.

Offline toddy

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 39
  • I Love YaBB 2!
    • View Profile
Re: Government starts effort to change succession law
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2011, 07:24:28 AM »
  they shouldn't change anything   This proposed law will be the down fall of the British Monarchy   I find it silly that a institution thats not democratic  and they are worried about fairness.  to be fair why don't they hold elections? elect the monarch? that's fair where do you stop?
this is absurd. 

Offline CHRISinUSA

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 844
    • View Profile
Re: Government starts effort to change succession law
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2011, 08:58:07 AM »
Emperor - I agree with your points about good timing - and add another:  the economy.  Case in point:  Canada.  Its government doesn't want a debate on the monarchy, they want to focus all of their efforts on the economy.

Just in April of this year, Prime Minister Harper said:  "The successor to the throne is a man. The next successor to the throne is a man.  I don't think Canadians want to open a debate on the monarchy or constitutional matters at this time.  That's our position, and I just don't see that as a priority for Canadians right now, at all."

Yesterday, this position has eased slightly - but Canada's government still clearly wants this to be dealt with quickly and without any fuss. 

"Prime Minister Harper has informed Prime Minister Cameron that we are supportive of these reasonable modernizations," spokesman Andrew MacDougall said Thursday in an email.  "However, the government doesn' believe there should be extensive parliamentary time spent debating this when the government is focused on creating jobs and growth in the economy."

So perhaps throwing together the current high goodwill for the royals with a bad economy might result in this being less troublesome than I originally feared.  Time will tell.....

Offline DNAgenie

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 192
    • View Profile
Re: Government starts effort to change succession law
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2011, 05:12:51 PM »
Australian Prime Minister Julia Gillard is backing a move by British Prime Minister David Cameron to rewrite constitutional law so the eldest daughter of the monarch can become queen, even if she has younger brothers.

Mr Cameron has written to 15 countries where the Queen is head of state asking for an agreement to the changes at a Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting in Perth later this month. Ms Gillard spoke in support of the changes earlier this year and said yesterday that as the first female Prime Minister she believed in equal rights for women.  She will consult the Australian states and territories about the proposal ahead of the CHOGM, a spokeswoman said.

Staunch monarchist Tony Abbott is also backing the plan. "It is a sensible change and a significant step in keeping the monarchy contemporary," the Opposition Leader said yesterday.  Mr Cameron also wants to ensure that marrying a Catholic is no longer a bar to the throne.  As well as winning approval from the Commonwealth, the changes would require amendments to at least half a dozen acts of parliament in Britain.  The Queen has given her assent to the latest initiative, which would rewrite the rules for descendants of the Prince of Wales but would not change the current line of succession.

Mr Cameron is proposing three main changes: that succession should be determined simply by the order of birth, regardless of gender; lifting the ban on anyone married to a Catholic succeeding to the crown; and tidying up the Royal Marriages Act 1772, under which descendants of George II require the monarch's consent before they marry.

Source:  The Australian.  October 14, 2011
 
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 05:15:00 PM by DNAgenie »

Offline Grace

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 3126
    • View Profile
Re: Government starts effort to change succession law
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2011, 06:19:19 PM »
Australian Prime Minister Julia Gillard is backing a move by British Prime Minister David Cameron to rewrite constitutional law so the eldest daughter of the monarch can become queen, even if she has younger brothers.

For me, to think of either of these clowns playing around with the Constitution is extremely unsettling. 

Offline Janet Ashton

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 719
  • www.directarticle.org
    • View Profile
    • Direct Article
Re: Government starts effort to change succession law
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2011, 06:39:06 PM »
Emperor - I agree with your points about good timing - and add another:  the economy.  Case in point:  Canada.  Its government doesn't want a debate on the monarchy, they want to focus all of their efforts on the economy.


Whereas Cameron's intention is to focus attention on anything BUT the economy. Even if it entails matters as massively peripheral and irrelevant to most people's lives as the royal family and their "fairytale romances". 
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you -
Ye are many; they are few.