Author Topic: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II  (Read 85265 times)

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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
« Reply #90 on: October 06, 2012, 11:57:46 PM »
I hope they can all rest in peace now. I wonder if they negotiate a final resting place for Alexander & Elizabeth (brother & sister of Prince Nicholas of Yugoslavia, who died in England and was reburied with his parents) near their parents & brother when their time comes ? 

Offline slavona

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Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
« Reply #91 on: October 07, 2012, 06:17:56 AM »
Duke Pavle and Alexandre I were brothers? I thought they were  distant relative. Alexander  has a strange brother, Goerge, and a sister Helena.

Offline Mandie, the Gothic Empress

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Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
« Reply #92 on: October 07, 2012, 11:27:37 AM »
^ Its a mess up in the article, they were first cousins Paul and Alexander I.


Eric - I dont know possibly.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 11:31:34 AM by Mandie, the Gothic Empress »

Offline Marc

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Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
« Reply #93 on: October 07, 2012, 12:02:40 PM »
^ Its a mess up in the article, they were first cousins Paul and Alexander I.


Eric - I dont know possibly.

It's a mess up for foreign language speakers,if the article is translated from Serbian...

In Serbia,cousins are called just very distant,distant relatives...first,second,third cousins are called brother,sister even though they are not in reality...

For example,Prince Michael of Kent and Archduchess Helen in Serbia would be called brother and sister from an Aunt to Princess Elizabeth meaning it's a brother/sister she has through her Aunt...saying first cousin would be a little bit out of language context as we have terms for every degree of relation,even for the ones in law!

It's a little bit hard to explain as English language doesn't have the terms for some of the relations we know...and they are just not translatable...similar as under the family law the title for Princess Elizabeth is not a Princess but Fürstin(Kneginja) of Serbia/Yugoslavia,like for all descendants of Prince Paul,but in English all of them are Princes and Princesses as the language doesn't have any equivalent term...

Even Elizabeth's name is not really Elizabeth as it is only an English translation of Jelisaveta,which is her real given name!
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 12:20:16 PM by Marc »

Offline Mandie, the Gothic Empress

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Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
« Reply #94 on: October 07, 2012, 12:18:59 PM »
^ indeed Marc. however i got it off an English site, possibly they got it off Serbian one. lol
I see, and very intersting. thank you for the info. :)

Offline Marc

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Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
« Reply #95 on: October 07, 2012, 12:27:22 PM »
^ indeed Marc. however i got it off an English site, possibly they got it off Serbian one. lol
I see, and very intersting. thank you for the info. :)

No problem :)

I assumed it's translated because Paul was never called a Duke or referred as such in Serbian language,but Knez which in English can only be translated as Prince.Duke,Prince and Knez are in Serbian different titles just like they have in Germany...Equivalent to Herzog,Prinz and Fürst...

For example while Serbia was a Princedom Head of the ruling family was Knez(Fürst),while other members were Princes and Princesses.When Serbia became a monarchy Head of the ruling family was King,his eldest son had the title of Prince the Heir to the Throne(King Peter II during his fathers reign),while other sons of the King held the title Kraljevic(which means Princes who are sons of the King,but not direct Heirs such as Tomislav or Andrej) and only Princes were rest of the main line family members(for example,sons of Kraljevic who is not an Heir,sons of Tomislav and Andrej).Knez/Kneginja were reserved for the collateral branch members(descendants of King Peters brother Arsen) of the ruling family with the predicate HH,only later after WWII they were upgraded to HRH...So,even during the time of being a regent Prince Paul was only HH.As in Serbia there were no noble titles given,the title of Duke was only military connected title given often to the Army generals and were not hereditary...

Hope it's not all that confusing ;)

The translated articles can be confusing due to differences and lack of some terms we all have in our languages which are sometimes not that translatable and hardly understanding for others...
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 12:49:28 PM by Marc »

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
« Reply #96 on: October 07, 2012, 02:02:47 PM »
Thanks for explaining the differences of titles Marc. I always thought that Paul & King Alexander was distant cousins. The article confused me too.

Offline Marc

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Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
« Reply #97 on: October 08, 2012, 04:15:07 AM »
Thanks for explaining the differences of titles Marc. I always thought that Paul & King Alexander was distant cousins. The article confused me too.

No problem :)

They were first cousins as their fathers were brothers(Peter and Arsen),but in Serbia they were called brother(he has) from an Uncle or simply brother,without any mention of degree of family relation...If one is a real brother(like Alexander I and George have been) he would be often mentioned as "born brother" to distinguish him from some other cousin also called brother...and this term is literally translated to English...that's why the article,if written by the Serbian Press can be confusing for others...

Only distant,distant relative is in Serbia called just a cousin...
« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 04:21:37 AM by Marc »

Offline slavona

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Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
« Reply #98 on: October 08, 2012, 04:31:03 AM »
Thanks for explaining!

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
« Reply #99 on: October 08, 2012, 07:38:11 AM »
I don't know that the spelling used in Elizabeth's name is different in Serbian. Always thought she was named after her Aunt Wooley (Countess Toerring-Jettenbach).

Offline Marc

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Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
« Reply #100 on: October 08, 2012, 08:59:26 AM »
I don't know that the spelling used in Elizabeth's name is different in Serbian. Always thought she was named after her Aunt Wooley (Countess Toerring-Jettenbach).

Yes,her original name is Jelisaveta which is translated Elizabeth as there is no other option,but in Serbia names Jelisaveta and Elizabeta(which would be more correct translated version of Elizabeth) are two different names and exist on their own...If one is Jelisaveta she is not called Elizabeta and vice versa...

If you go to Serbia and ask for Princess Elizabeta,nobody would have an idea who is it,but if you say Princess Jelisaveta,everybody would know...

When you read Serbian newspapers Queen Elizabeth II is always called and translated as "kraljica Elizabeta",never "kraljica Jelisaveta" which would sound ridiculous,as to us it's a different name and nobody would have guessed who is it...

Similar like in many books and articles we see Princess Helena Petrovna or Elena Petrovna(daughter of King Peter I),but in reality her name was Jelena...and again,in Serbia-Jelena,Elena and Helena do exist,but as different names!If one is Helena,she is not called Elena and if one is Jelena she is not called Helena so they can't be confused...and in English it's just under one name!

Also,in Serbia terms like Princess Paul or Princess (husbands name) doesn't exist.Women are always known and called by their own names which can be funny when they translate Princess Michael of Kent.It sounds like there has been a mistake,as to us that kind of terms are not known and she would be always Princess Marie-Christine,which again is not correct due to British Royal House Law.Under Karadjordjevic House Law every female member that marries into the family get the title of Princess with her own name after,so our either state or royal House Law doesn't recognize the term Princess husbands name...always her own!
« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 09:20:23 AM by Marc »

Offline Marc

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Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
« Reply #101 on: October 08, 2012, 09:33:32 AM »
So,just to add,calling Olga Princess Paul is not legally correct as her title is connected to Royal House Law she married into...

Calling her Princess Paul would be like calling Princess Marie-Christine of Kent instead of Princess Michael of Kent,as there is no such under British RF Law...
« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 09:35:49 AM by Marc »

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
« Reply #102 on: October 09, 2012, 10:19:11 AM »
Thanks for the info. I guess Olga liked that form better than the other. She & Paul could have chosen Elizabeta instead of Jelisaveta.

Offline Marc

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Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
« Reply #103 on: October 09, 2012, 10:45:42 AM »
Thanks for the info. I guess Olga liked that form better than the other. She & Paul could have chosen Elizabeta instead of Jelisaveta.

I guess,but Jelisaveta is a bit more Serbian,so I guess that played the part!

Offline KarlandZita

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Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
« Reply #104 on: October 13, 2012, 07:31:13 AM »
Princes Nicolas and Alexander :

Reginei Mama Elena a Romaniei