Author Topic: Assistance in Identifying Cavalry Uniforms  (Read 6429 times)

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Offline Richard D

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Assistance in Identifying Cavalry Uniforms
« on: October 29, 2011, 11:53:04 AM »
Hi,

I was told that this group photo shows officers of a Russian Imperial Cavalry School and came from the collection of Imperial Russian Army 17th Dragoon Nizhegorodsky Regiment Colonel Nicholas Rilsky, former Manservant of Czar Nicholas II (settled down in Copenhagen after the Russian Revolution).

I will appreciate any help in identifying the uniforms worn by these cavalry officers. I have already identified some Hussars (''H'' in red) and Lancers (''L'' in green).

Also, could you tell me when approx. this photo was taken?

Thanks in advance,

Richard



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« Last Edit: October 29, 2011, 12:23:57 PM by Richard D »

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Assistance in Identifying Cavalry Uniforms
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2011, 07:58:57 AM »
Hello Richard

White-topped caps with red bands were worn by officers of the Chevalier Guards and Horse Guards, and with blue bands by officers of the Blue Currassiers. Presumably the Yellow Currassiers had white-topped caps with yellow bands.

I'd hazard a guess that the two white tops on view had red bands, as the Blue Currassiers shade of blue was quite light - somewhere between sky blue and royal blue.

Hope that helps

Ann

Offline Richard D

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Re: Assistance in Identifying Cavalry Uniforms
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2011, 04:33:43 PM »
Hello Ann,

Thanks for your answer. It's very intertesting.

If I concider your comments, there is a great probability that two officers on the picture were respectively from the Yellow Cuirassiers and Chevalier Guards Guards/ Horse Guards (see the enclosed photo #1).

As for the other officer with the white-topped cap (see the enclosed photo #2), perhaps he is a member of the Horse Guards. I based my observation on his cap (white top and red band) and because he wears a black ''vice-moudir'' (I think that a Cuirassier officer did not wear that).

Richard





Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Assistance in Identifying Cavalry Uniforms
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2011, 08:29:16 AM »
Hello Richard

Thanks for your comments, but what is a vice moudir? Is it the tunic which this gentleman is wearing (which looks as though it may be dark blue rather than black)?

As a more general point on Russian military fashion before 1914, virtually all these officers have moustaches, and those who don't have beards. Dimitri Pavlovich was clearly unusual in going clean-shaven. Was he so fair-haired that he couldn't grow a decent moustache? My moustache-wearing chap (dark-haired) tells me that it took him a couple of goes to produce a respectable one, by which time he was about 25, and I think my very fair father tried growing one in his twenties which was not a success (he grew the present moustache when he was about 45).

Ann


Offline Richard D

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Re: Assistance in Identifying Cavalry Uniforms
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2011, 10:53:43 AM »
Hello Ann,

The ''vice-moundir'' (not ''vice-moudir'' as I wrote) is the Russian equivalent of the French ''veste de petite tenue''. I found more information regarding the used of this tunic in the Russian Cavalry; for the period of 1900 to 1914. In the four Cuirassier regiments (the Horse Guards were part of them), the ''vice-moundir'' worn by the enlisted men, the NCO's and the officers was black; except for the officers of the Horse Guards which was dark green.

As for the mustache and beard wearing, it was the men's fashion of the time. These masculine attributes were regarded as a badge or sign of virility.

Cheers,

Richard

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Assistance in Identifying Cavalry Uniforms
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2011, 02:59:00 PM »
Hello Richard

Many thanks, but I'm still not sure what the British equivalent of a  vice-moundir would be (not being a follower of French practice!) Would it be the equivalent of 'blues' or frock coat?

Interestingly, in the BBC series of Anna Karenina in approx 1977 Vronsky may be depicted as a Horse Guards officer. Most of the time he is wearing a white tunic and red banded cap, but from time to time he appears in a (very) dark green frock coat.

In the British Army, Generals appear from time to time in blues with frock coat, also bandmasters.

Ann

Offline Richard D

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Re: Assistance in Identifying Cavalry Uniforms
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2011, 06:37:07 PM »
Hello Ann,

The British equivalent of ''vice-moundir'' should be the ''Service Tunic''.

What you say about Vronsky is very interesting. I have never seen this BBC series but I can give you a possible answer of why Vronsky is wearing, most of the time, a white tunic. In Summer, the Horse Guards officers wore the white ''Kitel'' (white fatigue smock) and always the white ''Koller'' in parade dress. The dark green frock coat was also a regulation clothing for the officers of the Horse Guards.

I will try to find the 1970's Anna Karenina series...

Cheers,

Richard
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 06:58:57 PM by Richard D »

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Assistance in Identifying Cavalry Uniforms
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2011, 12:17:00 PM »
Hello Richard

The 1970s Anna Karenina is available on DVD from Amazon. Stuart Wilson was a consummate Vronsky, except when he had to appear on horseback!

Ann

Offline Nicolá De Valerón

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Re: Assistance in Identifying Cavalry Uniforms
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2011, 12:27:14 PM »
Hi Richard,



Btw, this is also not from the Russian Imperial Army. I think it's also someone from Balkans. A lot of Slavic Balkan officers studied in this Cavalry school.

P.S. Sorry that didn't answered on your last message, very busy now. I'll try to identify other officers in the near future.

Nicola.
"I think that if Shakespeare lived in our times he would not be able to write. Many of his works are not welcome on stage nowadays: The Merchant of Venice – anti-Semitism, Othello – racism, The Taming of the Shrew – sexism, Romeo and Juliet - hideous heterosexual show..." - Vladimir Bukovsky.

Offline Richard D

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Re: Assistance in Identifying Cavalry Uniforms
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2011, 12:41:05 PM »
Hello Ann,

Thank you very much for the information! Last night, I watched on YouTube some excerpts from this series. I realy enjoyed it. I like the historical series made ​​by the BBC in the 1970s. Actors are always very good as the script. But what I find very special, are the studio scenes (the scene lighting is always very well done).

Richard

Offline Richard D

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Re: Assistance in Identifying Cavalry Uniforms
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2011, 12:51:27 PM »
Hi Nicola,
 
Glad to hear from you.

You think this gentleman was not a Russian officer. It's interesting...


Do you have the exact name of the Cavalry School?

Richard

P.-S.: Thanks again for your help.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2011, 01:02:06 PM by Richard D »