Author Topic: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness  (Read 166150 times)

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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #450 on: October 23, 2010, 12:19:12 PM »
I list the KR case as an example on homosexuality. It is relavant if Serge was gay, he would be in the same catagory as him. He wrote that he agree with Serge in many things and argue on his behalf quite a few times. I don't know if that meant that KR knew or have any information that Serge was gay too. The point is that Alexander III said nothing about KR's homosexuality did not meant he did not know that he visited bath houses and was gay. I think in Serge's case was more like he was deeply closeted as suffered as he was so religious. So Alexander III by hinting that Serge could not be a father may be hitting on something that he had no intention of going further.

Offline Magdalena

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #451 on: October 23, 2010, 02:37:39 PM »
uhhh... the whole case's getting a bit silly... do we have a slight obsession with homosexuality here or maybe I am mistaken?
« Last Edit: October 23, 2010, 02:40:56 PM by Magdalena »

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #452 on: October 23, 2010, 04:50:06 PM »
No...It was whispered even at the time when Serge was alive...

Offline Alexander1917

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #453 on: October 23, 2010, 05:21:28 PM »
wasn't this a fact?

Offline Svetabel

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #454 on: October 24, 2010, 12:53:50 AM »
uhhh... the whole case's getting a bit silly... do we have a slight obsession with homosexuality here or maybe I am mistaken?

The discussion on this subject is  as old as our Forums. It had been discussed so many times but some posters love to talk about again and again.

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #455 on: October 24, 2010, 01:06:57 PM »
I think it is a possibility why they were childless. Hense the discussions.

Offline perdita

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #456 on: November 09, 2012, 01:22:43 PM »
whether or not Serge is gay is not the question. It was his deep closeted feelings manifested itself into intense hatred for Jews and became a religious fundamentalist that was the problem. An added factor was his mistrust of the russian people after the horrifying death of his father. He always believe he would die in a similar way (he did). Serge was a tortured soul and only Ella could reach out to him. The decision to "adopt" the children of Grand Duke Paul was not Ella's idea. Childless herself, nobody saw how hurtful it would be to flung them on her face on a daily basis. The jealousy between her & Marie Pavlona the younger was well documented. Yes, she was no saint, but it makes me like her more with her faults.

Many childless women eagerly adopt. No problem. They happily raise children not their own.

Given Ella's attitude towards Marie & Dimitri, it is probable that she did not want to compete for Serge's love & affection. She confessed to Marie Pavlovna after her husband's assassination that she suffered greatly from jealousy because Serge had loved them so much.

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #457 on: November 09, 2012, 01:32:32 PM »
Yes. But Ella was not one of those women. She could be nice to children outside her home, but to have constant reminder that she could not was painful.

Don't think Ella was ready to be a foster parent when situation forced the children into her house (when Paul ran away with his mistress to Paris). She did not adopt them but had tio live with the situation. There is a big difference between that and a well thought of decision to adopt. The fact that she got along with Dimitry while had problems with Marie spoke volumes. I don't think Ella could fix Marie's father issues (problems with men all her life) if she tried.

Offline perdita

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #458 on: November 09, 2012, 01:45:21 PM »
Well...First of all Alexander III knew of his brother's condition (of course he was Tsar) either because of his homosexuality and inability to perform sex. But he never went into specifics.

In fact, homosexuals have children and are capable of having sex with women.

It is highly unlikely had Serge not been able to consumate his marriage that he would have advertized that deviancy to his relations--much less to the puritanical & censorious Alexander 111.

Alexander intimated that he knew for certain that Ella & Serge would have no children. He could not have known that, if as yet, there had been no sexual contact between the couple. Alexander could not predict the future.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2012, 02:07:27 PM by perdita »

Offline perdita

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #459 on: November 09, 2012, 02:03:12 PM »
No...It was whispered even at the time when Serge was alive...

It was more than "whispered", even at the time the Empress Alexandra was alive, that she was a German spy, Rasputin's mistress, in her zeal had given her daughter's to the "mad monk", and was "doping" the Tsar.  (Post revolution an extensive paper trail rehabilitated Alexandra's maligned image.)

Powerful & unpopular people are lightening rods for scape goating mass hysteria & tabloid rumor mongering.

K.R. is confirmed a homosexual who cruised the bath houses looking for young men exposing his wife to STDs. No one thinks the worse of him for that. In fact, K.R. is virtually regarded a saint and thought VERY decent and likeable. Interestingly, the Empress Alexandra pitied K.R's wife because she thought her overly submissive to a strict & patriarchal husband.

« Last Edit: November 09, 2012, 02:20:40 PM by perdita »

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #460 on: November 09, 2012, 02:10:33 PM »
Some do some don't. Aribet of Anhalt was one of those who cannot. In fact Bertie (Edward VII) said "Poor Marie Lou, some came back the way she gone" (meaning a virgin).

I don't think people talk about sex in such open terms in those days. Queen Victoria and her relations did question the marriage when Ella & Serge came to visit. They actually expect the worst and Ella spent time and letters explaining that she was fine.

I think logically if there is no consummation of the marriage, there could of course be no children.

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #461 on: November 09, 2012, 02:17:18 PM »
I think if Serge was gay, he was very much in the closet and even more repressed than K.P.

Rasputin did try to touch Olga Alexandrovna and she never cared for him once she met him. Ella thought that he was the devil incarnate and expressed difficulty in praying while he was in the same church with him...Lies ? Hardly. If the Imperial Family expect the worst of Rasputin, what can we expect from the regular people ?

Also in "Alix & Nicky", the relationship between Anna, Alix & Nicky blurred as the letters indicate a very unhealthy relationship. Anna in love with Nicky and Alicky knew and did nothing about it...

Offline perdita

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #462 on: November 09, 2012, 03:06:57 PM »
Some do some don't. Aribet of Anhalt was one of those who cannot. In fact Bertie (Edward VII) said "Poor Marie Lou, some came back the way she gone" (meaning a virgin).

I don't think people talk about sex in such open terms in those days. Queen Victoria and her relations did question the marriage when Ella & Serge came to visit. They actually expect the worst and Ella spent time and letters explaining that she was fine.

I think logically if there is no consummation of the marriage, there could of course be no children.

There exists no confirmation that Serge & Ella's marriage wasn't consummated.

Queen Victoria and her relations questioned the marriage because of the gossip mongerers.  (Was EVERYBODY in bed with Ella & Serge?)
Ella blamed the rumors on spiteful intriguers prevalent in Royal social circles.  In fact, there is a long history of unconfirmed but very public rumors persisting to this day targeting a myriad of historical figures Victoria & Brown, the Eddy Duke of Clarence, Alexandra & Rasputin, Anastasia, Serge & Ella, Kyril & Victoria, the Duke of Windsor, Hitler, kidnappings, JFK, Elvis, Monroe, Princess Grace, Princess Di, Prince Philip,......etc.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2012, 03:33:50 PM by perdita »

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #463 on: November 10, 2012, 07:56:29 AM »
Yes...but no confirmation that it ever was too ? I put a lot credence on the fact that Alexander III knew his brother cannot have children. Yet Ella still goes to fertility spas for to conceive. I do wonder maybe like Marie Louise, her info on sex was as naive ?

I think there where would be no smoke if there wasn't a fire. Nobody question Ernie's sexuality until Ducky spoke out. Most certainly QV knew something about Ella's marriage and did not like it.

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #464 on: November 10, 2012, 08:58:46 AM »
As I have said above, Alexander III's letter was written when Ella and Serge had been married for nearly eight years. In the days before contraception, a normally fertile couple would produce their first child within two years of the wedding, very often less than one year. Obviously, there were exceptions, but if after nearly eight years there was still no sign of a child, but in the days before fertility treatment it could reasonably be assumed that there weren't going to be any children. It is quite possible that that is what Alexander was alluding to.

Ann