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Topic: The Alleged 1916 Visit to Russia  (Read 94391 times)
Reply #435
« on: August 20, 2007, 07:14:37 AM »
AGRBear Offline
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Dear Bear, EL was Grand Duke Ernst Ludwig of Hesse, Alix' brother.

This is some information that I found on Dedo von Schenck: He was born at Schloss Mansfeld in Saxony-Anhalt, Germany, on 11 February 1853 and died at Wiesbaden on 28 April 1918; he married Catharina von Wardenberg (1865-1938) on 2 October 1884.  He served as a Lieutenant in Kaiser-Franz-Garde-Regiment No. 2 from 1870 or 1871; as First Lieutenant with the staff of the Grenadier-Regiment from 1899; as Colonel and Commander of Kaiser-Alexander-Gardegrenadier Regiment No. 1 from 1901; and as Lieutenant-General /Kommandeur (Commander?) of the 14th Düsseldorf Division from 1911. Finally, he was promoted General of the Infantry and Kommandeur of the 18th Frankfurt am Main Army Corps in 1912 . [Source: database of the Hessian State Archive]

Thank you Helen.

AGRBear
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Reply #436
« on: September 04, 2007, 10:57:11 AM »
strom Offline
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I have read somewhere that GD Ernest was accommodated at the Pavlovsk palace during his visit to the Russian Imperial Family (probably in early December 1916).  He reported spent at least a full 24 hour period at the Alexander palace.   
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Reply #437
« on: September 04, 2007, 11:41:53 AM »
Helen Offline
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Princess Vera Konstantinovna (* April 1906) seems to have placed Ernst Ludwig at Pavlovsk, although I'm not sure she said it was in December 1916. She was rather young at the time, though, and her testimony given after so many years may not have been very reliable.
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"The Correspondence of the Empress Alexandra of Russia with Ernst Ludwig and Eleonore, Grand Duke and Duchess of Hesse. 1878-1916"  -  http://www.bod.de/index.php?id=296&objk_
Reply #438
« on: January 11, 2011, 12:41:44 PM »
AGRBear Offline
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There are two books- one is by Sergey of Markov and was published in 1929 by Amalthea and the title is "How I wanted to rescue the tsarina" (I ve translated the title for their is no English edition of the book). This one is fictional.
Huh FOTR used How We Tried to Save the Tsaritsa by Sergei Markov, Putnam Ltd, London, 1929, as a source, so there is an English edition of this book. And Sergey Markov's book was not considered fiction on the thread about the question whether Sophie Buxhoeveden betrayed the IF.

Helen,

We have the English edition here. It is pretty much clearly a work of fiction, HOWEVER, the reason we did not "consider" it fiction was to try to give the original source of Buxh.'s "betrayal" the benefit of the doubt about their source in the first place. Even accepting the Markov statements AS ACCURATE, they did not say what the authors cited them as saying.  Clearly, the fact it is unreliable means nothing more than the authors relying on it to support their assertions as being true do nothing but cast further doubt on the reliability of their research and assertions in general. 

There is no question after reading Sokolov, who had no axe to grind, that Markov's book is a bunch of "hooey" to be polite.  Lord he says he and Soloviev were IN JAIL arrested by the local Soviet for unspecific crimes, when Nicholas was transferred from Tobolsk, when Soloviev proved beyond a doubt that Soloviev was not in jail at the time and in fact was a Bolshevik agent. Markov himself was the commander of a Bolshevik Red Brigade for pete's sake...and the very second after the IF was transferred from Tobolsk, Markov high-tailed it STRAIGHT to German held Kiev and then Berlin where he met with the German High command. What does THAT tell you?


Is there any information on Markov.  Birth?  What did did after 1918.  Death?

AGRBear
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"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Reply #439
« on: January 11, 2011, 04:50:52 PM »
grandduchessella Offline
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There are two books- one is by Sergey of Markov and was published in 1929 by Amalthea and the title is "How I wanted to rescue the tsarina" (I ve translated the title for their is no English edition of the book). This one is fictional.
Huh FOTR used How We Tried to Save the Tsaritsa by Sergei Markov, Putnam Ltd, London, 1929, as a source, so there is an English edition of this book. And Sergey Markov's book was not considered fiction on the thread about the question whether Sophie Buxhoeveden betrayed the IF.

Helen,

We have the English edition here. It is pretty much clearly a work of fiction, HOWEVER, the reason we did not "consider" it fiction was to try to give the original source of Buxh.'s "betrayal" the benefit of the doubt about their source in the first place. Even accepting the Markov statements AS ACCURATE, they did not say what the authors cited them as saying.  Clearly, the fact it is unreliable means nothing more than the authors relying on it to support their assertions as being true do nothing but cast further doubt on the reliability of their research and assertions in general. 

There is no question after reading Sokolov, who had no axe to grind, that Markov's book is a bunch of "hooey" to be polite.  Lord he says he and Soloviev were IN JAIL arrested by the local Soviet for unspecific crimes, when Nicholas was transferred from Tobolsk, when Soloviev proved beyond a doubt that Soloviev was not in jail at the time and in fact was a Bolshevik agent. Markov himself was the commander of a Bolshevik Red Brigade for pete's sake...and the very second after the IF was transferred from Tobolsk, Markov high-tailed it STRAIGHT to German held Kiev and then Berlin where he met with the German High command. What does THAT tell you?


Is there any information on Markov.  Birth?  What did did after 1918.  Death?

AGRBear

There's a bit about him on this site:

http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/v/o/n/Holger-Von-dehn/FILE/0001page.html

Go down to #38.
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Reply #440
« on: January 12, 2011, 09:20:21 AM »
Kalafrana Offline
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I've come late to this thread, and, having plodded through it, have not changed my original view that the 'visit' didn't happen. It was discussed at the German end but got no further, quite possibly because Nicholas, when sounded out, refused to have anything to do with it. My reasons, apart from reluctance at the Russian end, the sheer impracticability of the whole scheme (not impossible, but very very diificult), and the improbability of using an alias like Thurn und Taxis. Royalty did on occasions use incognito when travelling abroad, quite frequently one of their lesser titles (Edward VII, as Prince of Wales, apparently used to travel as the Earl of Chester). But why adopt the alias of an Austro-Hungarian of prominent family, when he could have posed as Baron X, a Dane or Swede?

I would not automatically discount the memory of a ten-year-old (I remember various people I met when I was ten quite clearly), but did Vera Konstantinovich actually know Ernst Ludwig in the first place? As she was quite a remote relation of Nicholas and Alexandra, I doubt that she would know him all that well. And if she didn't know him, why would anyone have told her who he was?

That being said, in 1917 Karl of Austria did initiate discussions with the French via his Bourbon-Parma brothers-in-law, but with the major difference that they were serving in the Belgian army and there was no need for clandestine journeys.

Ann
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Reply #441
« on: January 12, 2011, 10:10:14 AM »
AGRBear Offline
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Thank you.  

This is  a portion of it:

>>In this chaos, and throughout the summer, my Mother was in constant contact, and was a link of a small insignificant Monarchist organization, which was sending couriers to Tobolsk in Siberia, trying to communicate with the Imperial family who were held prisoners there, and attempting to organize a rescue operation, which weak underground movement had its headquarters in Petrograd and was organized by a certain Markoff, Anna Vyrubova, a young officer called Sedov, who was a son-in-law of Rasputin, General Count Keller, Commander of Troops in Kiev, my Mother Julia von Dehn, and several other young army officers who had remained loyal to the Imperial family, amongst whom was a certain Serge Markoff, (No relative of the Markoff in Petrograd.).

During early spring 1918, Serge Markoff left Beletskovka, as a secret courier of the organization and made his way in disguise to Tobolsk, and managed to establish some indirect contact with the imprisoned Royal family.He many years later when resident of Vienna, Austria, where he worked as conductor of Railway sleeping cars, wrote his memoirs, in which he dedicates considerable space to his stay in Beletskovka, and his expedition to Siberia, and my Mother.His book is called "How we tried to save the Tsaritsa,” written by Sergei Vladimirovitch Markov, and published by G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1929.
          
 I remember Sergei very well; he was a close friend of mine.He used to make forts, and fortifications out of gypsum, paper, and wire, and play toy soldiers with me for hours.I also remember him arriving from some long journey disguised as a woman, as officers were everywhere being hunted down, tortured and shot whenever uncovered.
When the Germans withdrew they left a lot of Army rifles and Ammunition, and I remember Sergei, and other officers spending a whole night, wrapping up these rifles and ammunition, and sinking them in a cesspool, of a garden W.C., with the hope of preserving them, and being able to use them in fighting the Reds.  
Then towards the end of July 1918, the dreadful news was received that all the Imperial family had been assassinated, and at first none of our group of people believed this tragic news to be true, and hoped against hope that they had escaped and had been saved.Also around this time a local Newspaper printed a report that my Father’s ship the "Variag," had been torpedoed and had sunk with all the Crew.One can imagine the desperation of my Mother and Grandmother trying to keep this news from me.<<

I am sure, there are a lot of stories that still need to be untangled. 

AGRBear
« Last Edit: January 12, 2011, 10:21:38 AM by AGRBear » Logged

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Reply #442
« on: January 13, 2011, 01:01:05 PM »
Eric_Lowe Offline
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I believe the journey did take place and Anna Anderson did touch a raw nerve.
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Reply #443
« on: November 27, 2013, 10:06:10 PM »
grandduchessella Offline
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I was looking at a German records site (http://www.lagis-hessen.de)  and came across this:

Mediation Grand Duke Ernst Ludwig against the Tsar, 18 December 1915

""Die mit deutscher Unterstützung über Stockholm nach St. Petersburg gereiste russische Hofdame Maria Wassiltschikowa übergibt Außenminister Sergei Dmitrijewitsch Sasonow zwei mit dem Auswärtigen Amt abgesprochene Briefe Großherzog Ernst Ludwigs an seinen Schwager Zar Nikolaus II., die eine Friedensvermittlung anregen. Die Mission verursacht Gerüchte über eine geheime Russlandreise des Großherzogs." "

Rough translation via google:

""The traveled with German support via Stockholm to St. Petersburg Russian maid Maria Wassiltschikowa passes Foreign Minister Sergei Dmitrievich Sazonov two prearranged with the Foreign Office letters Grand Duke Ernst Ludwig to his brother Tsar Nicholas II, which stimulate a peace mediation.'s Mission caused rumors of a secret trip to Russia the Grand Duke. "

More googling around led to a report in that same year, 1915, by a Paris correspondent for a Swiss paper, that the Grand Duke had visited Russia secretly.

So the rumors had started in 1915 (even though the story as put out later put the 'visit' in 1916) and even made it in the press. As Anna Anderson was proved not Anastasia, perhaps however she came across this information (herself or handlers) they conflated the letter/visit from the newspapers during the War into the supposed mystery visit?



« Last Edit: November 27, 2013, 10:12:55 PM by grandduchessella » Logged

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