Author Topic: Why the Yusupov Palace?  (Read 39150 times)

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Offline Richard_Cullen

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Re: Why the Yusupov Palace?
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2012, 06:56:40 AM »
Well can I deal with from the outset with the nonsense that Rasputin was poisoned - he wasn't, there was no evidence of poison found.  The wound to the head matches the unjacketed bullet of the revolver mentioned in my book, or do some people know better than one of Britain's top pathologist or Russia's Zharov and colleagues.  Oswald Rayner was at the Palace that night and you all know my views from then on.
I feel like one
Who treads alone
Some banquet-hall deserted,
Whose lights are fled,
Whose garlands dead,
And all, but he, departed!
Refrain:
Thus, in the stilly night,
Ere slumber’s chain hath bound me,
Sad mem’ry brings the light
Of other days around me.

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Offline rudy3

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Re: Why the Yusupov Palace?
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2012, 08:05:30 AM »
Yes, we know that Rasputin did not die of poison, no evidence of poison was found. But what did the conspirors know or believe? They seem to have believed that they poisoned him... It probably at that time was plan B (although not planned) to give Yusupov a revolver to shoot Rasputin?

Offline Petr

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Re: Why the Yusupov Palace?
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2012, 02:56:59 PM »
The wound to the head matches the unjacketed bullet of the revolver mentioned in my book, or do some people know better than one of Britain's top pathologist or Russia's Zharov and colleagues. 

I take it that you discount Margarita's comment on the head wound, as follows;

"Everyone seems to be ignoring one important detail and that relates to the fact that a Webley .455 fires .454 diameter bullets.

Those bullets measurements are however given in "inches". Therefore converting .454 into "mm" we find that it is equivalent to 11.5mm.

Given that Zharov allowed that "the caliber of the weapons was equivalent to 6.35mm" and Professor Pounder estimated that: “…the central defect of the wound is about 6mm true diameter"; Nelipa asked in her recent book @ p 388 the following question:

Why did Cook propose that a Webley (a British issue weapon) having a caliber of 11.5mm was the weapon responsible for creating a 6mm diameter entry wound into the forehead?"


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Offline Belochka

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Re: Why the Yusupov Palace?
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2012, 07:31:41 PM »
The wound to the head matches the unjacketed bullet of the revolver mentioned in my book, or do some people know better than one of Britain's top pathologist or Russia's Zharov and colleagues. 

I take it that you discount Margarita's comment on the head wound, as follows;

"Everyone seems to be ignoring one important detail and that relates to the fact that a Webley .455 fires .454 diameter bullets.

Those bullets measurements are however given in "inches". Therefore converting .454 into "mm" we find that it is equivalent to 11.5mm.

Given that Zharov allowed that "the caliber of the weapons was equivalent to 6.35mm" and Professor Pounder estimated that: “…the central defect of the wound is about 6mm true diameter"; Nelipa asked in her recent book @ p 388 the following question:

Why did Cook propose that a Webley (a British issue weapon) having a caliber of 11.5mm was the weapon responsible for creating a 6mm diameter entry wound into the forehead?"


Petr

Richard your response would be welcomed.


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Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Why the Yusupov Palace?
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2012, 03:46:10 AM »
Cook claims that it is 'obvious' from the photograph of the entry hole that it was made by a Webley .455. I showed the book to a pistol specialist from the Small Arms School Corps museum and he was highly doubtful, just from the look of the hole.

I also think Cook's claims that SIS men were involved are based on very thin evidence indeed. I have nothing but Cook's book to go on, but as a serious academic I am not impressed.

Ann

Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Why the Yusupov Palace?
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2012, 06:44:03 PM »
Someone needs to straighten out who shot Rasputin ect and update his wiki bio. If rasputin was shot in the head with a 6.35mm/25acp pistol he most likely could have been shot by GD Dimtri. After Dimtri first shoots Rasputin in the side and Put shoots him in the back Rasputin who is still alive turns his head and possibly his body towards Dimtri who shoots him in the head which kills him. At least that what could have happened.

Offline Petr

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Re: Why the Yusupov Palace?
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2012, 03:49:46 PM »
Dear James:

I think you should read Margarita's book which goes into great detail regarding what happened that night.

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Offline John Walker

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Re: Why the Yusupov Palace?
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2012, 06:40:20 PM »
Dear James,
Who shot Rasputin is a matter for speculation.  That said it is reasonable to assume that as there were three gunshot wounds from three different calibre guns there were also three different shooters.  Who they were and who fired which shot is a question which will never be answered..... unless..... if there was British involvement as Richard Cullen maintains then is it possible a report made by Hoare or Rayner is held in British archives under the 100 year rule scheduled for release in 2017?  I was very taken with Richard Cullen's 'speculation' in 'Rasputin: The Role of the British Secret Service in his Torture and Murder'.... until I read Margarita's 'evidence' questioning the calibre of the head shot and investigator Zavadsky's report.  I await Richard Cullen's comment on this....please!  These sources may question some of Richard Cullen's claims but the basic one regarding Oswald Rayner remains viable.
How Rasputin was shot is I think quite clear.  He received two body shots from close range as reported by both Felix and Purishkevich.  These two shots were fired in the basement room.  Rasputin's body was left in the basement, again as reported by Felix and Purishkevich as they went to the room above.  Medical science states that Rasputin could have lived and moved for 10 to 15 minutes after this shooting.  Rasputin recovered temporarily and made his way up the stairs and out into the yard.  We can be sure that he got into the yard because Zavadsky (chief investigator) writing in "На Великом Изломе : Дело об Убийстве Распутина" says blood was found on the doorstep.  Felix attempted to explain the blood with his story that Dmitri had shot a dog, however Sereda (Zavadsky's medical expert) analysed it to be human blood.  The blood could scarcely have come from anyone other than Rasputin.  Someone, perhaps Purishkevich as he claims, came down from the upstairs room, saw Rasputin escaping into the yard and fired at him from the doorway.  Fired AT him........ AND MISSED!  Rasputin simply collapsed from the earlier gunshot wounds, the loss of blood and the effort of climbing the stairs.  This is something authors do not seem to have considered!  All written accounts seem to assume that if a shot was fired then the bullet entered Rasputin's body.  No.  There are no gunshot wounds on the body to suggest Rasputin being hit from a distance.  It is reasonable to assume both that Purishkevich with poor eyesight, shooting excitedly, nervously, from a lighted doorway at a moving target in pitch darkness would have missed and that Purishkevich, seeing Rasputin fall, assumed that he had hit him and that in any case he would want to claim that he had hit him.  It is also reasonable to assume that no-one present would have bothered to examine the body.  They would have been interested only in making sure the body was a corpse.  To this end they would have taken the body quickly back into the baement room and fired a single shot point blank into the forehead.  Felix and his butler Buzhinsky then went back into the yard to see if anything needed 'tidying up' but were disturbed by officer Vlasyuk.  This meeting led to the need to invent the dog story and to their deciding to summon Vlasyuk to the Palace for a quiet chat.
Well......?  It fits the known evidence!  Doesn't it?
 

Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Why the Yusupov Palace?
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2012, 06:45:52 PM »
I'll get around to reading Margarita's book one day.  One more question I know the head shot was a 6.35mm/.25 acp and Purishkevich was using a savage auto pistol most likely in 7.65mm/32 acp or 380 auto. anyone know the third caliber used on him?

Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Why the Yusupov Palace?
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2012, 09:11:50 PM »
I got "The Murder of Grigori Rasputin" by interlibrary loan an excellent book on the subject. I was impressed with the research and photos. I do have some minor gripes the book could have done with an index and a glossery. There are two maps of the period which were good. However, it would have been better to have maps of the areas in question in English so people can find where the locations are. there are also some minor errors that I have foumd: there are Countess Paley and Countess Cantacuzene when the women where both princesses. Kolchak is a general when he was an admiral. P411 has General Ruzsky at STAVKA when he was at Pskov Northern front Headquarters. P473 Ben. Baratov's 1st Caucasion Cavalry division didn't unite with british forces in Iraq until 1 April 1917 the book has them linked up with them before the revolution. There are also mentions in this book of an aerial artillery or ariel security regiment or aerial battery at TS. In reality in the book "Young Stalin" the Okrana concluded that terrorists might try and crash a plane into a palace. According to the book "The Russian Army in WW I" at the start of WW I the Russian armys only anti-aircraft battery was stationed at TS. I believe when the IF was out of town the commander of it took his unit to the front to shoot at some real targets.
Some other comments from me on this crime: It looks like the first shot into Rasputins side could possibly have been done by the the same handgun a Browning 25 acp/6.35mm most likely used for the third head shot. This is because this was the pistol aquired by Dimitri as the murder weapon since I don't think Yussopov owned any firearms. It was most likely disposed of right after the murder possibly tossed in a river so it could not be traced to them. The book also mentions nobody could hear the shots fired outside because the killing took place an enclosed room. Good reasons to use a small caliber handgun 1 less noise 2 less danger of a through and through richocheling. Some accounts do have a record player playing "Yankee Doodle" while all this is going on. Rasputin being passed out drunk or asleep when he was shot with a small caliber handgun. After laying him on the floor and going to get Dimitri Rasputin wakes up with one heck of a chest pain staggers up the stairs and outside. The others see and /or hear him. Purishkevich pulls out his Savage automatic pistol runs after him fires at him 4 times in the dark hits him once in the back Rasputin collapses. Note: I have handled a Savage automatic pistol the sights are not the greatest in the world and Purishkevich is shooting in a poor light/dark condition. Also the book has the following timeline Rasputin is picked up around 0130 and the shots fired by Purishkevich were heard in the 0230-0300 timeframe. This realy doesn't give enough time to carry out any sort of interogation of him. Also note: it probably took 10-15 minutes to drive Rasputin from his apartment to the palace and he and the others had to take off their coats hats and gollashes. i hope my comments are of some interest/use to you all.

Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Why the Yusupov Palace?
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2012, 04:30:32 PM »
I have just finished up with the book "Caucasian Battlefields A history of the Wars on the Turco-Caucasian Border 1828-1921"  a fine book on the subject. It seems in April 1916 a Sontia of the 1st Umanski Cossack Regiment under a Cpt Ganley rode from Kari-i-Shirin Persia and linked up with the British  Ali Gharbi in modern day Iraq and back with the loss of a few men. This was more of a gesture than a link up. The Russian force soon had to withdraw. General Baratov's force was the I Caucasian Cavalry Corps and consisted of the Caucasian Cavalry division, the 1st Caucasian cossack division, the Kuban Cossack Brigade, and the border brigade at this time April 1916. The main linkup occured in 1917 as mentioned in my earlier post. This is where GD Dimtri P was sent into "exile" after is involvement in the murder of rasputin.

Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Why the Yusupov Palace?
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2013, 05:15:17 PM »
Update I found a map in the book Michael and Natasha which show where Rasputins Apartment was on Gorokhoaya street about where it intersects the Fontanka canal. comparing that to a map in the book "The End of the Russian imperial Army"  which has a scale miles and km it looks like it is about 1 1/2 to 1 3/4 mile from Rasputins house by road to Yussopov's moika palace. Yussopov in his book Lost Splendor" mentions they took a roundabout way to get there add to this it had been snowing so they would have to keep to the main roads so taking 5 to 10 minutes to get there is reasonable. I hope this is of some use

Offline londo954

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Re: Why the Yusupov Palace?
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2013, 05:48:34 PM »
As I understand it from several accounts Rasputin was lured to the Yusupov Palace by a primrose from Felix of a romantic entanglement with his wife.

Offline blessOTMA

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Re: Why the Yusupov Palace?
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2013, 01:40:25 AM »
I always think it was Yusupov Palace and Felix and Dimity because the Imperial family wanted it known they  killed Rasputin ...I mean why else? It was a message to Alex and Nichols or a message to the people , but you don't get rid of  the court favorite  in such a comic opera public way unless you want it known...imo

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Offline John Walker

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Re: Why the Yusupov Palace?
« Reply #29 on: July 18, 2013, 09:19:35 AM »
No, sorry, bless OTMA!  If Rasputin had not escaped into the yard leading to the gunshots which alerted the police, his body would have been quietly removed unseen from the palace (as indeed it was!) and no one would ever have known he had been there.  Yussupov used disguise and an unmarked car to collect Rasputin and without the fracas in the yard there would have been nothing other Rasputin telling his daughters he was visiting the 'little one' to connect Felix with the disappearance.  Even knowing they would have the support of the old court, the family and others Felix and Dmitri would have known there would be retribution through Nicholas from Alexandra Feodorovna.  Would Dmitri have risked exile to Persia?  No!  The 'plan' fell apart because Rasputin escaped out into the yard and they could scarcely have planned for that.