Author Topic: Rurik descent  (Read 26195 times)

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Vanya Ivanova

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Rurik descent
« on: April 16, 2012, 07:58:20 AM »
Apparently, (supposedly) my paternal grandmother's family are of Rurik descent, I would really appreciate any tips on websites etc whereby I might be able to verify this please. ( I cannot speak Russian so would need resources to be in English) The family name was Galitsky and they were from the Moscow area. Many of my ancestor's were in the Military pre 1917, I don't know their regiments etc but does anyone know what Imperial army regiments were specific to Moscow ?

Many thanks

Thea

Offline totheboss

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Re: Rurik descent
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2012, 11:05:44 PM »

Vladimir Yaroslavich - Prince Galitsky, the only son of Yaroslav Osmomysl (c. 1135-1187) from Olga, the daughter of Yuri Dolgoruky Born in Yaroslav (c. 1151-1189)
Yuri Dolgoruky is considered the founder of the Russian capital Moscow.
Yuri Dolgorukys’ father Vladimir II Monomakh is reported as a descendant of Rurik, so that would make Vladimir Yaroslavich - Prince Galitsky  Ruriks’ Great Great Great Great Great Great Grandson.
So if your family are related to the Princely Galitsky family you have a link to Rurik, but having a link to Yuri Dolgoruky it's pretty good in itself. 
Alex

Offline Tsarfan

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Re: Rurik descent
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2012, 07:01:48 AM »
Apparently, (supposedly) my paternal grandmother's family are of Rurik descent  . . . .

You're in good company.

Catherine the Great was a descendant of the Rurik Grand Prince of Tver, which was a prosperous and well-governed medieval Russian state that in its early days rivaled Moscow as a potential kernel for a future all-Russian state.  (By Catherine's time Tver was an important way station on the road from St. Petersburg to Moscow, and Catherine even had the prominent Russian architect Matvei Kazakov erect a neoclassical travel palace for her in the city.)

So through Catherine there was Rurik blood on the Russian throne up until the end of imperial Russia.  In fact, if one accepts Catherine's intimations that Paul I was fathered by Sergei Saltikov instead of by Peter III, there was more Rurik blood than Romanov blood spilled by the revolution.

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Rurik descent
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2012, 09:38:48 AM »
Interesting.

Where did Catherine's descent from the Tver line fit in?

Ann

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Re: Rurik descent
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2012, 11:16:40 AM »
Oh, boy.  Genealogy isn't my bag, and I'm afraid I've forgotten the details.

If I remember correctly, it came in through one of the Princes of Tver (descendants of Yaroslav III, the Rurik Grand Prince of Vladimir) who married into the German dynasty of Ascania (which, after acquiring Anhalt as its largest territory, became known as the House of Anhalt and later of Anhalt-Zerbst-Dornburg).  Catherine, of course, began life as Sophie of Anhalt-Zerbst.

Perhaps one of the genealogy experts on the forum can weigh in.

« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 11:20:35 AM by Tsarfan »

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Re: Rurik descent
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2012, 01:53:24 AM »
The last of Rurik's dynasty to rule Russia passed in 1597; but the connection was renewed in 1745 when Catherine the Great (descended from the Rurikid Grand Prince of Tver) married into the ruling Romanov dynasty.
Catherine II was a descendant of Rurik via several ancestral lines, not merely one.
To start, both of her parents were descendants of Rurik
Alex

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Rurik descent
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2012, 03:44:34 AM »
I've posted elsewhere on the Forum (trying to remember where), the descent of Harold II into the Plantagenet house via his daughter Gytha and Vladimir Monomakh and Andrew of Hungary. Since the Plantagenets and their descendants intermarried extensively with continental houses, it's a fair bet that all the European royal families are descended from Rurik by this route (if not others).

Ann

Vanya Ivanova

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Re: Rurik descent
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2012, 05:33:02 AM »
Wow, I had no idea it was so grand a connection (if there is any truth to my having such a connection). My paternal grand mother was born in France in 1920 to Russian emigre parents. Her father died when she was about 10 yrs old so around 1930 and her mother re married and moved to England. My grandmother died when I 9yrs old and so I only really know about her mother's family and I'm in contact with relatives still living in Russia on that side. I have my grandmother's birth certificate that states her father's name was Galitsky but his profession is rather unhelpfully given as 'gentleman', whatever that means.

My Russian cousins are my only real source of information about my great grandfather's family and they don't seem to know very much either. I have been told the Galitskys were in the military for generations and where from Moscow and of course the Rurik descent bit. Thanks so much for the posts, I shall absolutely have to look into it further now.

Its interesting of course but I dont feel one can't take the glory or the shame for what ones ancestors were or did. On my paternal grandfather's side I have discovered events and connections that are very disturbing.  Old versions of the family arms had the image of an African man in chains as part of the design to signify their ownership of plantations in Jamaica and Barbados. I know that's not my fault and I see the slave trade as being one of the most evil crimes in human history but to know my ancestors were involved and became rich (or rather richer) because of it still makes me feel very very uncomfortable. If some of my Russian ancestors were indeed that grand then goodness knows what I will discover about them, hopefully nice, heroic stories to balance things out!

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Rurik descent
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2012, 06:52:24 AM »
'Gentleman' in this context probably means that your great-grandfather was sufficiently well off not to need to earn a living.

There is an English joke that if a farmer loses £10,000 a year, he's an inefficient farmer. If he loses £100,000 a year, he's a gentleman farmer (he doesn't need to worry about losing that aount of money, as his other resources will make up for it).

Ann

Vanya Ivanova

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Re: Rurik descent
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2012, 11:02:56 AM »
Thanks Ann, thats really helpful, the joke is good too, very dry and very english. I hope I'm able to discover some proof, but I'm concerned records such as birth certificates etc from pre revolution Russia might not be that easy to get hold of or even still exist, my Russian cousins are hopeful but I'll have to hold off ordering ermine robes and telling everyone I'm related to Catherine the Great for the time being at least ha ha !

Given the connection is that august/grand I suspect Galitsky is probably a relatively common name like Romanov and that its just family lore etc that has made a link to the Princely Galitskys of Rurik descent, either way I think I'll struggle to find 'evidence'.

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Rurik descent
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2012, 11:16:18 AM »
I do remember reading an article about the woman at the centre of the duel between Nikolai Yssoupov and Count Arvid Manteuffel. For reasons I forget two Princes Gagarin (brothers) were also involved in the saga). Apparently, the astronaut Yuri Gagarin was not a relation, because it was not uncommon forpeasants on aristocratic estates to take the same name as their masters.

But you might be lucky and need the robes after all.

Ann

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Re: Rurik descent
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2012, 08:06:53 AM »
Harold II's daughter Gytha married Vladimir Monomakh. Their son Mstislav, Grand Prince of  of Kiev, had a daughter, Euphrosyne, by his second marriage, who married Geza II of Hungary.

Geza's grandson, Andrew II of Hungary, had a daughter, Violant, who married James I of Aragon. Their daughter, Isabella, married Philip III of France, and was thus the grandmother of Isabella of France, who married Edward II of England. Philip III and Isabella of Aragon had a younger son, Charles of Valois, whose son, Philip, became the first of the Valois Kings of France after all the three sons of the elder son, Philip the Fair, died without male issue. Since there has since been a huge amount of intermarriage between the descendants of Edward II and Isabella on the one had and the desendants of Philip VI on the other with all the royal houses of Europe, it is a safe bet that they are all now descended from Vladimir Monomakh and Gytha, and through them from Rurik.

Ann


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Re: Rurik descent
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2014, 05:19:21 PM »
I do remember reading an article about the woman at the centre of the duel between Nikolai Yssoupov and Count Arvid Manteuffel. For reasons I forget two Princes Gagarin (brothers) were also involved in the saga). Apparently, the astronaut Yuri Gagarin was not a relation, because it was not uncommon forpeasants on aristocratic estates to take the same name as their masters.

Another reason why many ordinary Russians share surnames with princely families is the fact that apart from the -sky surnames indicating possession (or origin) of /in a place (like Galitsky, i.e. of or from Halych in eponymous Galicia in Ukraina) there are no distinct noble surnames (unlike Germany and France, where nobles always have territorial surnames, Britain where they often have Anglo-Norman surnames etc.). Gagarin is simply a nickname derived from гагара, loon, and described an ancestor who either had the black-and-white colouring or long neck of a loon, the shrill laughter of a loon or was odd (and solitary?) as a loon. So Gagarin can best be translated as Looney.

In the princely Gagarins' case this was 13th-century Prince Yuriy Mikhailovich Starodubsky-Golibesovsky (note the -sky-endings), nicknamed Gagara / Loon, whose descendants became known as Gagarin.

But no doubt many peasants also nicknamed each other Looney. (Animal nicknames form the basis of many Russian surnames.) Perhaps "Looney"'s neighbours thought it extra funny if they all were serfs of the high and mighty Princes Gagarin?
« Last Edit: April 10, 2014, 05:25:26 PM by Превед »
Берёзы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и берёзы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline Превед

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Re: Rurik descent
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2014, 05:45:23 PM »
Apparently, (supposedly) my paternal grandmother's family are of Rurik descent, I would really appreciate any tips on websites etc whereby I might be able to verify this please. ( I cannot speak Russian so would need resources to be in English) The family name was Galitsky and they were from the Moscow area. Many of my ancestor's were in the Military pre 1917, I don't know their regiments etc but does anyone know what Imperial army regiments were specific to Moscow ?

Unless there was a confirmed princely title in the family, Rurikid ancestry is rather unlikely, considering that the male line of the Princes of Halych is considered to have died out in the 12th century when the principality was annexed by Hungary. (And it is very unlikely any claimants from the 12th century kept the name, in an age when no-one had surnames.)

There does not seem to have been any princely Galitskiy family in the Russian Empire, but there were several Galitskiy families, with the name probably only indicating a Galician origin.

Here are the arms of a noble Galitskiy family, from the Geneal Armorial of Noble Families of the Russian Empire: http://gerbovnik.ru/arms/1933.html
It says that one Pavel Galitskiy entered state service in 1808 and was dismissed in 1824 with the rank of collegiate assessor (service rank 8, at that time equal to major, i.e. the same "The Nose" in Gogol's rankomanic story) and was awarded hereditary nobility in 1837. As nobles his children would have gotten a head start in the military (cadet schools etc.), so it's not unlikely that his descendants would have military careers.
Берёзы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и берёзы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline Превед

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Re: Rurik descent
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2014, 06:19:50 AM »
More very commonplace Russian noble surnames:
Tolstoy = Fatty
Pushkin = from пушка, cannon
Usov = from Усы, moustaches or whiskers
Potyomkin = from потёмки, dark, swarthy.

The Romanovs nearly ended up as ludicrously named as the fictional Prince Myshkin (from мышь, mouse):
Some of the earliest Romanovs were known as Koshkin, as descendants of the 14th-century boyar Fyodor Andreyevich Koshka (= female cat).

« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 06:36:33 AM by Превед »
Берёзы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и берёзы», 1843 / 1856)