Empress Alexandra and the Vigee le Brun painting/Marie-Antoinette

I'm sorry to start a new thread but couldn't find a reference to this anywhere else. I'm intrigued by the fact that Alexandra had the painting of Queen Marie-Antionette and her children by Madame Vigee le Brun hanging in her audience/reception room at the Alexander Palace.

I remember reading that Alexandra was thrilled to stay in rooms used by the ill fated french queen on a state visit to France and some considered it a 'bad omen' for her to do so.  What I find odd is the fact that the painting showing the French Queen and her children was placed in such a public, ie political position. I think I'm right in saying this was the room where Alexandra conducted all her formal meetings and business?

Alexandra was obviously making some statement with this in my opinion. This particular painting is especially sad as it shows an empty cot next to the Queen. Her last child the baby Princess Sophie was painted out after her early death.

I would really love to know if the Empress acquired this painting before or after the Tsarevitch was known to be ill?  Alexandra would have been very aware of the terrible and tragic fate of both of Marie-Antionette's sons shown in this picture. I would really like to hear what people think of why Alexandra felt such an affinity to the tragic French Queen and why she made a public statement connecting herself to a doomed, ill fated monarchy.

just thought this link to the painting might be useful

http://www.sedefscorner.com/2011_10_09_archive.html

I'm sorry to start a new thread but couldn't find a reference to this anywhere else. I'm intrigued by the fact that Alexandra had the painting of Queen Marie-Antionette and her children by Madame Vigee le Brun hanging in her audience/reception room at the Alexander Palace.

I remember reading that Alexandra was thrilled to stay in rooms used by the ill fated french queen on a state visit to France and some considered it a 'bad omen' for her to do so.  What I find odd is the fact that the painting showing the French Queen and her children was placed in such a public, ie political position. I think I'm right in saying this was the room where Alexandra conducted all her formal meetings and business?

Alexandra was obviously making some statement with this in my opinion. This particular painting is especially sad as it shows an empty cot next to the Queen. Her last child the baby Princess Sophie was painted out after her early death.

I would really love to know if the Empress acquired this painting before or after the Tsarevitch was known to be ill?  Alexandra would have been very aware of the terrible and tragic fate of both of Marie-Antionette's sons shown in this picture. I would really like to hear what people think of why Alexandra felt such an affinity to the tragic French Queen and why she made a public statement connecting herself to a doomed, ill fated monarchy.

 

  I don't have my usual sources quite at hand at the moment, thus I am commenting from memory (and will gladly stand to be corrected), but I seem to recall that the depiction to which reference is given above, was a copy of the le Brun painting done in TAPESTRY and was a gift to the Empress. ( I likewise seem to recall that it had been/was placed in the semi-circular hall at the AP. )           Regards,  AP.

Thank you Aleksandr Pavlovich, yes you are right, I should have re read the 'Time Machine' chapter on this room before placing the post. It states it was a gift from the French President Lebrun. However it is also stated there that the Empress was very interested in Queen Marie-Antoinette and read a great deal about her. That in turns makes one wonder if this particular gift was chosen by the French President precisely because the young Empress had expressed such an interest in the tragic Queen.

I know that the French Royal family's possessions were all auctioned off in a massive sale at the time and many objects ended up at the Alexander Palace but does anyone know if Empress Alexandra bought or was given anything else belonging to Marie-Antoinette?

I still think the Empress's decision to place the tapestry of the doomed French Queen and her children in her formal/public reception room was a deliberate act. This is the room where the Empress of Russia formally met ambassadors and dignitaries. Whilst there were many objects inherited with the room, Alexandra made her it own domain that reflected her interests and personality (the cosy corner and the Kaulbach portrait for instance). 

Just imagine for a moment you are a dignitary invited to meet the Empress in her formal reception room or perhaps attend a luncheon there. Once you have been greeted by the Empress and started to become accustomed to your surroundings you would start to take in the objects and furniture as a reflection of or clues about your exalted hostess. To then recognize the large portrait in the corner as being that of the de throned and executed French Queen, looking at you as it were, 'over the shoulder' of the Empress would have at the very least 'raised an eyebrow'.

King Louis XVI of France was by all accounts fascinated by King Charles I of England, albeit a horrified fascination. He did not however place a portrait of that unhappy monarch in his public audience chamber and to have done so would surely have been seen at the time as politically symbolic.

Perhaps Empress Alexandra simply didn't see any symbolism in having the tapestry in her formal reception room. She was very naive in many repects.  However, I'm certain many of her guests would have. She must also have been aware of her ancestors the Grand Duchesses of Hesse having been very close friends of Marie Antoinette. I would really appreciate hearing other peoples views on this as it shows that at the start of her husband's reign, the Empress was interested in and had a personal affinity with the French Queen and by association some inderstanding of the French Revolution. How many times in later years must she have reflected on the fate and mistakes of the Bourbons?

Thank you Aleksandr Pavlovich, yes you are right, I should have re read the 'Time Machine' chapter on this room before placing the post. It states it was a gift from the French President Lebrun. However it is also stated there that the Empress was very interested in Queen Marie-Antoinette and read a great deal about her. That in turns makes one wonder if this particular gift was chosen by the French President precisely because the young Empress had expressed such an interest in the tragic Queen.

I know that the French Royal family's possessions were all auctioned off in a massive sale at the time and many objects ended up at the Alexander Palace but does anyone know if Empress Alexandra bought or was given anything else belonging to Marie-Antoinette?

I still think the Empress's decision to place the tapestry of the doomed French Queen and her children in her formal/public reception room was a deliberate act. This is the room where the Empress of Russia formally met ambassadors and dignitaries. Whilst there were many objects inherited with the room, Alexandra made her it own domain that reflected her interests and personality (the cosy corner and the Kaulbach portrait for instance).  

Just imagine for a moment you are a dignitary invited to meet the Empress in her formal reception room or perhaps attend a luncheon there. Once you have been greeted by the Empress and started to become accustomed to your surroundings you would start to take in the objects and furniture as a reflection of or clues about your exalted hostess. To then recognize the large portrait in the corner as being that of the de throned and executed French Queen, looking at you as it were, 'over the shoulder' of the Empress would have at the very least 'raised an eyebrow'.

King Louis XVI of France was by all accounts fascinated by King Charles I of England, albeit a horrified fascination. He did not however place a portrait of that unhappy monarch in his public audience chamber and to have done so would surely have been seen at the time as politically symbolic.

Perhaps Empress Alexandra simply didn't see any symbolism in having the tapestry in her formal reception room. She was very naive in many repects.  However, I'm certain many of her guests would have. She must also have been aware of her ancestors the Grand Duchesses of Hesse having been very close friends of Marie Antoinette. I would really appreciate hearing other peoples views on this as it shows that at the start of her husband's reign, the Empress was interested in and had a personal affinity with the French Queen and by association some inderstanding of the French Revolution. How many times in later years must she have reflected on the fate and mistakes of the Bourbons?

  Thank you very much for your kind and thought-provoking comments.  As I personally have neither the interest nor the energy to explore in depth the psychological aspects of the French queen or the Russian empress, I do feel that for the Empress A. F. , the interest in the French queen (and the ultimate fate of herself, her husband the King, and their children) simply and almost mystically reinforced the potential "sacrificial aspect" of "anointed" royalty.  The tapestry, by hanging in the semi-circular hall, was certainly a mute and ironic witness to the long wait and then departure of the Imperial Family from the Alexander Palace.

   Good luck on your interests and explorations thereof.      Regards,  AP.

Thank you Aleksandr Pavlovich, yes you are right, I should have re read the 'Time Machine' chapter on this room before placing the post. It states it was a gift from the French President Lebrun.

I believe the French President's name was Émile Loubet.

Thank you Aleksandr Pavlovich, yes you are right, I should have re read the 'Time Machine' chapter on this room before placing the post. It states it was a gift from the French President Lebrun.

I believe the French President's name was Émile Loubet.

  And indeed it was M. Loubet.  I had obviously taken into account that through an understandable error, "Vanya Ivanova" had subliminally transposed the sur-name of the artist of the original work to that of the President.  I feel certain that she is aware of it now. Thanks for bringing it to the fore.       Regards,  AP.

The 'Time Machine' chapter on the Empress's formal reception room gives the French Presidents name as LeBrun, a mistake I should perhaps have checked, thanks for pointing it out Clemence.

To clarify then, Felix Faure was President when the Imperial Couple made a state visit to France in 1896 and the gift was made by his successor, Emile Loubet when he made a return state visit to Russia in 1902.

''In the spring of 1902, the French president, E. Loubet visited Russia and brought as a present for the Russian Empress a tapestry made from a painting Marie-Antoinette and Her Children by Vigee-Lebrun. The tapestry was hung in the Corner Living Room of the Alexander Palace opposite the bureau at which Alexandra Feodorovna used to work.''

One of the most wonderful things about studying historic events in my opinion is the benefit of hindsight. You attain a sort of omniscience by virtue of being able to see the whole picture unlike the protagonists. Therefore learning that Empress Alexandra had a knowledge and personal interest in the French Revolution provides for me a wonderful 'intertextuality' between the French and Russian Revolutions.

On a personal level the similarities and differences between the two women who ultimately shared the same fate I find remarkable. There is a great deal of misogyny involved in the historic judgement of both women who are largely blamed for their husband's mistakes. In my opinion, Louis XVI and Marie-Antoinette were both much more sympathetic personalities who whilst representing a despotic system of government were both brave and in many ways admirable individuals. Alexandra Feodorovna whilst compassionate and thoughtful and no less tragic than her French counterpart was a fanatic who compounded her husband's failings as a ruler but cannot be made culpable for them.

The Romanovs and especially their photographic legacy are one of the best preserved and easily accessable archives of what Russia was like before 1917. However, their regime is so deeply flawed ( Nicholas II's resistance to progressive government and his anti semitism for example) it is a rarefied and problematic 'window'. Therefore trying to understand their context and psychology is for me the best way to balance my distaste for their regime.

General interest in Marie Antoinette would arise during the Second Empire when Napoleon III. and especially his wife Eugenie started to reign with enormous splendor. The 18th century style became immensely popular again and contemporary scientists as well as authors began to rehabilitate the Queen's name which had very much been (and to many still  is) a scapegoat and the ultimate symbol of negative aspects of absolutism.
Empress Eugenie started collecting items belonging to Marie Antoinette and she also had her famous "domain" at Versailles restored and a special exhibition on MA there.

Placing the tapestry in her official reception room was completely agreeable for Alexandra because it had been the precious present from the most important (and only) ally Russia had in those days and this room would be seen by numerous official guest of rank. Secondly it would be a perfect addition to the lavish furnishings because the room was decorated with Louis XVI furniture which even at the turn of the century was considered regal and up to date (Wilhelm II of Germany favoured that style too).

So on behalf of Alexandra this was certainly a mixture of politeness as well as personal taste - there was not the least peculiarity on this decision. This is a merely modern way of thinking because we all know how history went on and how the Empress would end up...

I agree with you Thomas that much of the furniture in the formal reception room was French and 'in vogue' and that it was natural to display a gift from the French President (an important ally) here.
 
However this could easily have been placed in the Parade Halls at the Palace, a public but more neutral position, or even in one of the private rooms.

The fact that it was placed directly in front of Alexandra's working desk also further adds weight that it had great symbolism for the young Empress. Every time she looked up from her work she was met by the image of the doomed Queen.

This particular image was very iconic as part of the Bourbon PR machine to promote Marie Antoinette as 'the mother of france'. There is also a great deal of contributory evidence that Alexandra felt a very deep personal connection to the French Queen and that the placing of the portrait would not have been accidental.

I agree with Aleksandr Pavlovich that this must have been partly due to the fact that 'royal sanctity' in the form of a 'Queen Martyr' very much appealed to Alexandra.

I found a great quote from another user on the forum, ChristineM, who posted this on the 'Alexandra and Marie Antoinette- who was more tragic?' thread:

''As previously stated, Alexandra Feodorovna occupied Marie Antoinette's bedroom at Versailles.  This impacted to such an extent that Alexandra Feodorovna had it recreated in the Winter Palace.   She used the same motif - a wreath pierced by an arrow - on everything.   Drapes, upholstery even the furniture had gilt bronze wreath's applied.   On a screen at the foot of the marital bed was yet another, very much smaller image of Marie Antoinette.   I believe Alexandra Feodorovna had a painting of Marie Antoinette in all her homes and I have read, although I am sorry I cannot recall the source, that among the belongings the Romanov family took with them into exile, was an painting of Marie Antoinette.''

The fact that she expressed such enthusiasm for a fellow consort who she would have seen as a royal 'martyr' shows a strong (and IMO disturbing) bent towards fatalism even before the Tsarevitch was born.

In reference to Napoleon III and Eugenie, my understanding is that they cynically invoked the memory of Louis XVI and his family to afford themselves some legitimacy as 'royalty' as they were considered 'usurpers' of very doubtful origin. Marie Antoinette's story as a romantic figure was infamous in Europe almost from the moment of her death so in my opinion Napoleon III etc didn't revive it as such, as it had never gone away.

I am sorry but hanging a picture above ones desk (which the Empress did not use very often for she usually wrote in the Mauve Room) and using a certain wallpaper (the wreath and arrow were so popular that you'd find it literally everywhere in Europe) does not mean that a person is tending to fatalism...

Right next to that picture would hang an even larger group of soldiers - Alexandra was most certainly a militarist as well

LOL Thomas Hesse. Very tonque-in-cheek. I have a  statue of Stalin in front of my desk, just a souvenir of a visit to St. P.  Personally, can't stand the man.
 BTW, you can still buy the MA fabric, from the original source, woven exactly as it was for her. It cost a fortune though. Alternatively, you can get a  copy  much cheaper from China or Viet Nam [I forget which].   Almost as good. We used that for  some furniture we were restoring for sale. It was indeed very popular all over the courts of Europe.
 It was, though, in contrast with AF's preference for the Maples furniture she favoured.
 I imagine  all the  royals as well as others were familiar with the MA story, so AF would not have been any different than any other princess of the time.

I am sorry but hanging a picture above ones desk (which the Empress did not use very often for she usually wrote in the Mauve Room) and using a certain wallpaper (the wreath and arrow were so popular that you'd find it literally everywhere in Europe) does not mean that a person is tending to fatalism...

Right next to that picture would hang an even larger group of soldiers - Alexandra was most certainly a militarist as well

Don't forget she liked Swastikas too Thomas...given some encouragement I'm sure we can reach well beyond mere fatalism and tie this in with some sort Alexandra premonition of future world events...

I am sorry but hanging a picture above ones desk (which the Empress did not use very often for she usually wrote in the Mauve Room) and using a certain wallpaper (the wreath and arrow were so popular that you'd find it literally everywhere in Europe) does not mean that a person is tending to fatalism...

Right next to that picture would hang an even larger group of soldiers - Alexandra was most certainly a militarist as well

Don't forget she liked Swastikas too Thomas...given some encouragement I'm sure we can reach well beyond mere fatalism and tie this in with some sort Alexandra premonition of future world events...

She used that sign because it is an ancient indian symbol of luck - and if you connect the Empress with the Nazis I will not comment...

I think we all know that there is no such connection. It is just a conjecture on those who believe in conspiracies and such nonsense.