Did GD Olga have more 'insight' than the rest of the family?
Vanya Ivanova:
There are two existing threads that deal with this in part but don't answer what I'm specifically looking for. I'd really really appreciate any help that can be given with this please.
The first is the 'Olga's pistol' thread.
The main source for this being this sites founder Bob A's quote about his meeting with a high ranking Russian Official:
''Once when I met Vladimir Soloviev, the Attorney General of Russia and the head of the committee on the investigation of the remains he showed me the Sokolov dossier that Stalin had - I have mentioned that meeting before. Afterwards we had a long talk about what he had found in his research through unpublished materials. I asked him if he could tell me somethings he had learned about the members of the family that surprized him. One thing he told me was the story of the small gun Olga carried. He said, if I remember correctly but this could be wrong, she had it in her boot and she had been given the gun by her father. He said Koblynski begged Olga to give it to him in Tobolsk. Later I found this in writing - but I haven't been able to relocate it.''
Other people also refer to this written source but no one seems to find it. Am I correct in thinking that Soloviev's testimony is the only western source then to verify that Olga had a small gun in captivity?
I want to discover if there is actually any truth/merit in saying that GD Olga had any more insight as to the danger the family where in than her parents and siblings as is sometimes claimed. I have learnt from this forum the value of perpective and the difficulties with source materials that require translation from the original language.
Its important therefore to try as much as possible to discount our 'post mortem' perspective and interpret in this instance GD Olga's signs of stress and depression from the lazeret period onwards from the viewpoint of the time when the family's fate was far from certain.
So, does anyone have any quotes/evidence to further support Soloviev's claim? and does anyone have letters or quotes from GD Olga during this period that show that she was actually afraid?
many thanks
Thea
Sarushka:
Quote from: Vanya Ivanova on May 03, 2012, 04:04:11 AM
Am I correct in thinking that Soloviev's testimony is the only western source then to verify that Olga had a small gun in captivity?
To my knowledge, yes, that is correct.
Quote
So, does anyone have any quotes/evidence to further support Soloviev's claim? and does anyone have letters or quotes from GD Olga during this period that show that she was actually afraid?
The closest thing I can think of are Buxhoeveden's recollections of Olga in Tobolsk and during their transfer to Ekaterinburg:
"The young people seemed cheerful enough, but the two elder realised how serious things were becoming. The Grand Duchess Olga told me [presumably in a letter, as Buxhoeveden was not permitted into the governor's house at this time] that they put on brave faces for their parents' sake. The younger children did not realise their danger, and the Grand Duchess Marie said once to Mr. Gibbes, in the early days of their stay, that she would be quite content to remain for ever in Tobolsk!" ~The Life and Tragedy of Alexandra Feodorovna
"Olga Nicolaevna had also greatly changed. The suspense and anxiety of her parents' absence, and the responsibility she bore when left as head of the house with her sick brother to look after, had changed the lovely, bright girl of twenty-two into a faded and sad middle-aged woman. She was the only one of the young girls who acutely realised the danger that their parents were in." ~Left Behind
IMO, these observations do not indicate that Olga's perception was unusually sharp -- rather, they show that her siblings were woefully ignorant of the situation. After all, it's not a leap of intellect to realize that deposed rulers may not fare well during a hostile revolution.
These quotes from Gilliard are often used to prove Olga's alleged brilliance:
"The eldest, Olga Nicolaievna, possessed a remarkably quick brain She had good reasoning powers as well as initiative, a very independent manner, and a gift for swift and entertaining repartee."
"She picked up everything extremely quickly, and always managed to give an original turn to what she learned."
"With the exception of Olga Nicolaievna, the Grand-Duchesses were very moderate pupils."
However, his complete thoughts on the matter are rarely given:
"Olga Nicolaievna did not fulfil the hopes I had set upon her. Her fine intellect failed to find the elements necessary to its development. Instead of making progress she began to go back."
(All Gilliard's quotes are from Thirteen Years at the Russian Court.)
Kalafrana:
I wouldn't say that Gilliard's words suggest that Olga had particular brilliance, merely that she was the only one of the four with a good brain, as distinct from being a very moderate pupil.
Ann
Vanya Ivanova:
thanks for the quotes they are really helpful.
I have looked at descriptions from Anna Vyrubova, Sidney Gibbs, Lili Dehn and Gleb Botkin and the consensus seems to be that GD Olga was particularly quick to grasp ideas and was an intelligent kind hearted if sometimes lazy and bad tempered person.
Anna Vyrubova remembered Olga as „perhaps the cleverest of them all, her mind being so quick to grasp ideas, so absorbent of knowledge that she learned almost without application or close study.
According to Gibbes she was "hot-tempered but did not bear grudges. She had her father's heart, but lacked his consistency. Her manners were harsh. She was well-educated and mature intellectually
Gleb Botkin stated ''She (Olga) was by nature a thinker and as it later seemed to me, understood the general situation better than any member of her family, including even her parents. At least I had the impression that she had little illusions in regard to what the future held in store for them, and in consequence was often sad and worried. But there was a sweetness about her which prevented her from affecting anybody in a depressing manner, even when she herself felt depressed."
One incident where GD Olga did show fear is from Lili Dehn:
On March 13th, when the rebels from near Petersburg came to Tsarskoe Selo, she only heard several shots. When she asked Lily Dehn what the noise signified, Lily said: „Darling, I don't know - it's nothing. The hard frost makes everything sound much more.“ „But are you sure, Lili?" asked anxiously the Grand Duchess. „Even Mamma seems nervous, we're so worried about her heart; she's most certainly overtiring herself - do ask her to rest.“
The most interesting quote I have found IMO is one from a letter the Tsar wrote to the Empress from Mogilev 27/04/16
'' I enclose a letter from Olga, which can you please send back to me. Poor girl, it is natural that she worries; so long has she she kept her feelings back-that she has to let them out and craves for real personal happiness which she has not had''.
This is not exhaustive of course but it only shows that GD Olga was sensitive and intelligent but also as early as 1916 unhappy and worried. For me the Soloviev testimony is of course very compelling but its not unequivocal proof and so therefore is problematic and for me the only evidence that Olga was more scared and worried by the situation than the others.
Like the 'birthday cake' incident with GD Maria which when you start digging you find there isnt one first hand testimony only 2nd and 3rd hand references to very little, Olga's pistol is a bit of a mirage.
I think that because the Gd's studiously destroyed their diaries and more personal letters we are left with very mundane, trite evidence in their own hand; went for walk, sunny weather etc. Like Margot Frank who also apparently kept a diary the merits and insights these young women did or didn't have is just something we will never know.
Vanya Ivanova:
Apologies my last post was very muddled and descended into melodrama!
quote from Sarushka : ''IMO, these observations do not indicate that Olga's perception was unusually sharp -- rather, they show that her siblings were woefully ignorant of the situation. After all, it's not a leap of intellect to realize that deposed rulers may not fare well during a hostile revolution.''
Could this 'ignorance' be down to the fact that all of the family's letters/diaries were subject to at least the possibility of censorship which they were aware of and so that may account for their seeming lack of awareness or desire to discuss any fears they may have had? Certainly in this respect I have not been able to find anything in GD Olga's own hand that suggests anxiety or fear.
Also its fair to state that until the Bolsheviks took over how much danger they were actually in is debatable. I think I'm correct in stating Kerensky left no record of a desire to execute or menace the Imperial family rather that they were merely an 'inconvenience' not a political threat. Their relatively good treatment under the Provisional Goverment could it might be fair to say have lulled them into a sense of security. Its even not totally clear if Lenin intended to murder them, ultimately I think Im correct in stating the Ural Soviet took it upon themselves to do that without clear 'permission'.
The censorship issue IMO means all we really have to go on are witnesses impressions. Certainly more than one witness states that the situation seemed to have had a more marked effect on GD Olga as already stated and that to them she seemed the most aware of the danger. These mainly being Baroness Buxhoeveden and Gleb Botkin. Both are 'problematic' witnesses in many ways especially Gleb Botkin as he had very little contact with GD's. However I don't see that it can just be dismissed completely.
More than one observer also states that GD Olga took an interest in outside events and had long discussions with her father in his study after the abdication. Again more than one observer had the impression she was 'quick to grasp ideas' whatever her later academic application may have been.
Therefore my overall impression at this stage is that GD Olga was certainly the least able to cope with the situation and if its safe to extrapolate on the veracity of the 'pistol' story most certainly the most afraid. Its really difficult to translate that into 'insight' though as that denotes 'prescience' of some kind that was only validated by later events. Also, in my opinion we really just don't know the level of awareness of her siblings as they may just have been more able to 'put on a brave face'.
Again I'd really like to know what other people think of this.
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