Author Topic: Call for comparison tests of relics from Orthodox Church in Brussels  (Read 11325 times)

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aleksandr pavlovich

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Re: Call for comparison tests of relics from Orthodox Church in Brussels
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2012, 01:01:37 PM »
   Referencing Reply 13:
   An exhumation at SS. Peter and Paul may not be needed to "compare" the bones, etc. under discussion at Brussels.  I feel (and this is only MY opinion) that actual samples of the physical bones that are now buried within the Cathedral at Saint Petersburg have been/were retained for future "comparison" or similiar need.  
   However, having personally visited the present burial site several times, I am of the opinion that in a "mechanical" sense, the opening of the N II burial vault would be a far simpler process as compared to the older imperial tombs within the Cathedral.  The seeking of such approval is another matter.    Regards,  AP.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2012, 01:18:03 PM by aleksandr pavlovich »

Offline LadyHezter

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Re: Call for comparison tests of relics from Orthodox Church in Brussels
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2012, 02:31:13 PM »
I meant to write "the last page" in my above post, not "the last past".  Sorry.  In too big a hurry.

I do understand a personal need to see the remains given the recognition of what they are and given a proper burial.  And I hope you do get to see the day, L.H.
Thanks, Tsarfan.
I did not want to be  rude,I only felt a little "attacked", thatīs all.
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LadyH

Offline blessOTMA

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Re: Call for comparison tests of relics from Orthodox Church in Brussels
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2012, 05:15:53 PM »
  Referencing Reply 13:
   An exhumation at SS. Peter and Paul may not be needed to "compare" the bones, etc. under discussion at Brussels.  I feel (and this is only MY opinion) that actual samples of the physical bones that are now buried within the Cathedral at Saint Petersburg have been/were retained for future "comparison" or similar need.
I hope you are right. But I believe the goal is to get them out of Peter and Paul and back into a lab drawer and so quite possibly " mere samples"  will not be deemed sufficient. The agenda seems to be to keep it all in flux forever.

"Give my love to all who remember me."

  Olga Nikolaevna

Offline Tsarfan

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Re: Call for comparison tests of relics from Orthodox Church in Brussels
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2012, 07:09:57 PM »
The agenda seems to be to keep it all in flux forever.


Exactly.

Very few people, if any, doubt the identity of the remains separate from the question of whether someone survived.  People who don't see the possibility of anyone surviving that massacre seem to have no trouble accepting the hard science of the DNA identifications.

The people who doubt the DNA are almost invariably lined up behind some pretender to Romanov status and have sometimes put their, uh, "professional" reputations as journalists or authors on the line over it.

Over the years we've seen some interesting claims, with Anna Anderson's being only the most famous and, though strained, at least not the most ridiculous.  My three favorites are:

Marga Boodts, who claimed to have been hidden in a sack of hay and shipped from Ekaterinburg to Vladivostock -- a distance of over 3,100 miles, and a very long way to go in a sack without a bathroom.  (Boodts was, of course, recognized as Olga Nicholaevna by Prince Sigismund of Prussia, who also recognized Anna Anderson as Anastasia before being disinherited by his mother.  A sterling endorsement if ever there was one.)

Suzanna de Graaff, who claimed to be the secret fifth daughter of Nicholas and Alexandra.  (This claim was recognized by Anna Anderson which, one would think, would have been ample proof that she was a delusional crackpot without needing any DNA to establish it.)

Heino Tammet, a Canadian whose strongest proof that he was Alexei was an undescended testicle (which was examined by the Royal Canadian Mounties at his invitation) and a form letter from Buckingham Palace addressed to Alexei Romanov and thanking the self-identified tsesarevitch for his congratulatory telegram upon the occasion of a British royal wedding.

And, finally, although a rather bizarre detour off the main Anderson claim, there was the claim that Anderson's DNA actually was properly identified as non-Romanov because she was a changeling, substituted at birth for the real daughter who died.

If you want a sample of just how strange the "logic" of these survivor adherents can be, here is a quote off John Kendrick's website meant, I suppose, to show how well-received was his hypothesis that Heino was Alexei:

"I must express my gratitude to His Holiness Alexei II, Patriarch of the Orthodox Church of Moscow and All Russia for the Christmas cards that he has sent for the past six years . . . .  Russia's Dr. Pavel Ivanov appeared to mistake me for a fellow scientist the first time that we spoke on the telephone.  He hasn't answered my letters now since September 1995.  The late Dr. William Maples at the University of Florida stopped talking the year before that.  England's Dr. Peter Gill sent photocopies of his 1994 NATURE GENETICS article without ever saying a word . . . . Richard and Marina Schweitzer (Granddaughter of the Tsar's Doctor Evgeny Botkin) have always been most kind on the telephone . . . .  Greg King (THE LAST EMPRESS) had said back in 1994 he would pay us a visit, but never came."

I'm impressed.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2012, 07:16:45 PM by Tsarfan »

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Re: Call for comparison tests of relics from Orthodox Church in Brussels
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2012, 09:00:04 PM »
The genetic sequencing of each sample has been done and stored. There is no need to open the burial place to "re test".  The samples are what they are.  Five different labs have, on two separate occasions sequenced and examined the DNA results.  Without QUESTION of any kind: One older male and one older female are the parents to four females and one adolescent male, who are all full genetic siblings to each other not to mention 100% the children of said older male and female. The older male parent matches precisely to the known control DNA sequence of Grand Duke George Alexandrovich (son of Alexander III) including a nearly unique haplytype mutation.  The older female parent matches 100% the Queen Victoria mtDNA and shows a close familial full DNA relationship to HH Prince Philip Duke of Edinburgh.

As Dr. Teri Melton who performed both sets of testing said to me "They can re test all they want. The results will always be the same.  The results we got will never be less conclusive, but can only become more conclusive with more loci tested."

Offline blessOTMA

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Re: Call for comparison tests of relics from Orthodox Church in Brussels
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2012, 01:54:35 AM »
...As Dr. Teri Melton who performed both sets of testing said to me "They can re test all they want. The results will always be the same.  The results we got will never be less conclusive, but can only become more conclusive with more loci tested."
Wow, thanks for posting

"Give my love to all who remember me."

  Olga Nikolaevna

Offline Inok Nikolai

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Re: Call for comparison tests of relics from Orthodox Church in Brussels
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2012, 10:33:13 AM »
The Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia has just released the following statement concerning this matter:

http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/eng2012/20120822_enstatement.html

The Russian text is here:
http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/2012/20120822_statement.html


NEW YORK: August 22, 2012

Statement from the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia


During its regular session on June 14, 2012, the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia deliberated on the matter of the discovery of the remains and other possessions relating to the martyrdom of the Royal Family which had been hidden in the walls of the stavropighial Memorial Church in Brussels. 

During renovations on St Job the Much-Suffering Church, which is also dedicated to the memory of Holy Royal Martyr Nicholas II, the Royal Family and all those martyred during that time of troubles, a sealed lead cylinder was discovered along with a glass tube with a handwritten document containing an inventory of the contents of the cylinder. 

The fact that the Memorial Church contained these remains and other objects connected with the brutal murder of the Royal Family in Ekaterinburg had been known to the Synod of Bishops. It was also know that they were handed over by the investigator of the murder of the Royal Family, NA Sokolov, before his death (November 23, 1924), to Prince Alexei Alexandrovich Shirinsky-Shikhmatov, and in 1940 were given to Metropolitan Seraphim (Lukianov), who at the time headed the Western European Diocese, and that further, on October 1, 1950, when the Memorial Church was consecrated by Metropolitan Anastassy, the First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, they were inserted into a sealed lead cylinder and built into the walls of the church.

The Synod of Bishops did not deem it proper to organize a search for the sealed capsule following the death of all the living witnesses, though naturally, over the recent two decades, many people exhibited an active interest in its existence. 
Now, after its discovery, in light of the fact that the important question of the remains of the Royal Family is coming to a final conclusion based on new evidence and serious scientific research, and since controversy yet remains, the Synod of Bishops expresses its willingness to cooperate in the further study of this matter on the basis of the discovery together with the Church in Russia. An absolute condition of such research will be a pious attitude towards everything relating to the martyric end of the Royal Family and its faithful servants.

The Synod of Bishops believes and hopes that this will help achieve the final answer to this matter, which is so important to the Russian Orthodox Church.

 
инок Николай

Offline LadyHezter

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Re: Call for comparison tests of relics from Orthodox Church in Brussels
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2012, 11:44:41 AM »
Thank You very much Inok Nikolai for posting this !

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LadyH

Offline Tsarfan

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Re: Call for comparison tests of relics from Orthodox Church in Brussels
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2012, 02:10:13 PM »
I did not want to be  rude,I only felt a little "attacked", thatīs all.

And you should have.  I did not realize how punchy my response was until I re-read it after the window for editing had closed.  Some of the nonsense here invites a punchy response . . . and then some.

Your post did not, and I'm sorry.

Offline LadyHezter

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Re: Call for comparison tests of relics from Orthodox Church in Brussels
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2012, 08:24:07 PM »
Donīt worry,dear Tsarfan-Iīm fine. ( i really mean it !)
regards
Ladyh