Author Topic: Russian history Errata: correcting ect N&A and other books  (Read 49651 times)

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Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Russian history Errata: correcting ect N&A and other books
« Reply #45 on: March 10, 2014, 06:12:25 PM »
It seems Trotsky account on what he was doing when the IF was murdered may not be all that accurate. In June he was talking about a spectacular trial for Nicholas with him as prosecutor and at the time of their murder he says he was out of town and was surprised they were all murdered.

The book The Fall of the Romanovs has him at the 18 july 1918 meeting of the Council of Peoples Commissars where Nicholas's murder was read out

The Book "File on the Tsar has him writing "T was never interested about how the sentence was carried out. and frankly I do not understand such curiosity.. my recolections about the case of the Tsar's family are rather fragmentary."

The book "The Propht armed" has him in Moscow during the SR revolt. He has said he was out of town for most of this month but I don't really see him leaving Moscow at this time when the regime was in danger. One wonders what role he really did play with the decision to kill the IF.

Offline edubs31

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Re: Russian history Errata: correcting ect N&A and other books
« Reply #46 on: March 10, 2014, 11:14:25 PM »
So where does his supposed discussion with Sverdlov (?) fall in the true order of events? The one where Sverdlov apparently tells him that the entire family have been killed. Trotsky, responding with some measure of surprise, asks "All of them?", and is responded to with "Yes, what about it? It was decided that we didn't want to leave the White's a live banner to rally around."

I'm paraphrasing a bit here, but I'm sure you know the conversation I'm referring to. Is it possible this didn't happen, or am I somehow getting my characters mixed up?
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right...

Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Russian history Errata: correcting ect N&A and other books
« Reply #47 on: March 11, 2014, 02:49:15 PM »
Trotsky supposed discussion with Svedlov I believe took place several days after the Romanovs were murdered possibly 25 July 1918. That's according to Trotsky who didn't like Svedlov that much and was writing long after Svedlov was dead. One must point out no records were kept on who was in favor of killing the IF ect. Also at this time Trotsky was a man without a country at this time so I guess he decided to blame it on Svedlov, Lenin and Iron Felix since they were all dead. That's the trouble with memoirs if there is a conversation between two people and one of them is dead the living one can pretty much say whatever he wants to say. Note Sandro's last talk with Nicholas and Alexandra.

Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Russian history Errata: correcting ect N&A and other books
« Reply #48 on: November 14, 2014, 06:24:52 PM »
You might call this a bored imperial Family;
Nicholas is reported to have yawned and look bored during military briefings.
Alexandra is reported to have looked bored and disinterested during political briefings during WW I.
Maria Fed is reported to have got angry if a briefing on the state of one of her charities lasted over 15 minutes
Tatania reguarded the head of  the Tanania Committee Alexei Heidgarde as a pompas bore at her Wensday afternoon meetings with him.

It looks like these people are bored by the affairs of state. I can say by personal experience these briefings can be really BORING to put it mildly. I am not alone there is a 1943 picture of then US Army chief of Staff Gen. G.C. Marshall and then commander of US forces in the European theater Gen D.D. Eisenhower. Marshall looks half asleep and Eisenhower looks totally disgusted. Some wag commented this is a normal state of affairs at a Pentagon briefing!

Offline wakas

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Re: Russian history Errata: correcting ect N&A and other books
« Reply #49 on: November 14, 2014, 06:36:57 PM »
That's funny, thank you James for posting it.  The funniest is the Dowager Empress. 15 minutes? Lol, that's... short!!!

Quote
It looks like these people are bored by the affairs of state
I don't blame them. As you said, briefings are soooooooo boring...
« Last Edit: November 14, 2014, 06:39:50 PM by wakas »
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Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Russian history Errata: correcting ect N&A and other books
« Reply #50 on: November 15, 2014, 12:52:35 AM »
I have to admit to being deeply bored at most of the meetings I go to!

Ann

Offline TimM

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Re: Russian history Errata: correcting ect N&A and other books
« Reply #51 on: November 15, 2014, 06:01:29 AM »
Little has changed in 100 years.
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Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Russian history Errata: correcting ect N&A and other books
« Reply #52 on: January 06, 2015, 06:33:14 PM »
In the book "Michael and Natasha" the is a quote from Michael's diary about a German aircraft being shot down in flames on 24 June 1915 (OS). In the book "The Russian Military Air Fleet in WW I"  Volume 2 On 7.7.16 (NS) which is the same as  24 June (OS) I has Albatross BI Nr 21.01 of Flik 1 Sgt Zeko P Kovach (P) & 1LT Robert Cizinsky (O) being shot down and killed by a Voisin aircraft of the 26th KAO 2Lt V.I.Ivanov (P) & Lt A.A. Alekseev (O). They both received the Order of St George 4th Class for this action. They also both received the Gold Sword of the Order of St George for the reconassiance missions they flew during the 13 June -3 July 1915 period.

(P) pilot (O) Observer
Flik Flieger Kompanie Flying company (the plane and crew were Austro-Hungarian not German)
KAO Korpusniy Aviatsionity Otryad Corps Aviation Detachment

Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Russian history Errata: correcting ect N&A and other books
« Reply #53 on: May 01, 2015, 05:36:52 PM »
In the book "Nicholas and Alexandra" Page 394 it has "For Cavalry regiments of the Guard were ordered from the front to Petrograd" but at Stavka General Gurko countermands the order. These regiments belonged to the 1st Guards Cavalry Division and may have been in the process of loading on trains before the order was countermanded. Gurko in his memoirs "Memories and Impressions of War and Revolution in Russia 1914-1917" says he countermanded the order because he was informed there were no billets for them in Petrograd. He points out there were 160,000 troops in the city in barracks designed for 40,000. Another account has the same number of troops in barracks designed for 20,000. A reasonable excuse. However the former Minister of the Interior Protopopov testified after the Feb/Mar 1917 revolution that Gurko was suspected by the Tsar for his contacts with Octobrist Leader Guchkov and was under police observation. Admiral Alexander Bubnov later wrote in exile that Gurko  had the intent to assassinate the tsar if he should refuse a ministry of confidence and that general Alekseev was involved in the plot. Other sources have Alekseev was unwilling to participate in such a plot. The source is the book "The End of the Russian Imperial Army" which also points out the evidence is too tentative to come to any firm conculsions. Note there was some real plotting and scheming going on during the winter of 1916-17.
 Gurko did send a battalion of the Guarde Equipage to Tsarskoe Selo where their barracks was. This is the same unit Grand Duke Cyril V led over to the revolutionaries. This men of this unit had made up their minds on the way to Petrograd on what they were going to do if ordered to fire on civilians. Note the unit contained many men who were workers from the Petrograd area and after the Feb/Mar revolution most of the men sided with the Bolsheviks.

Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Russian history Errata: correcting ect N&A and other books
« Reply #54 on: May 07, 2015, 04:08:52 PM »
In February 1917 the Northern Front sent the 1st and 4th Don Cossack regiments to Petrograd from the 1st and 4th cavalry division respectively. They proved unreliable in riot control and joined the mutiny

Page 394 in Nicholas and Alexandra also has Protopopov having the Petrograd city police training in the use of machine guns. Other accounts also say this was done. More than a few people in Petrograd report police machine guns firing on protesters. This appears to be a Urban legend. It started because in mid-January 1917 at a session of the Special conference of the Duma Rodzianko accused Protpopov of diverting machine guns from England, which were intended for the front , to police units for quelling expected domestic disturbances. During the post march 1917 revolution provisional government Extraordinary Investigation Commission all who testified including Protopopov, General balk , the Petrograd Police chief, General Khabalov the Petrograd Military district commander, General Beliaev , the War minister and a number of police and okhrana officials said no police detachments were trained in the use or machine guns or had plans for their use.  Also as a result of the post revolution investigation a inventory was done of all machine guns in the Petrograd area and all of them belonged to military units.