Author Topic: Date of Founding of Romanov Dynasty  (Read 7474 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline TimM

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1903
    • View Profile
    • Rex and Hannah Chronicles Wikia
Re: Date of Founding of Romanov Dynasty
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2013, 11:07:15 AM »
Quote
A movie could be made on the life of Alexander I and his rather extraordinary reign.

Has anyone ever made a movie about Alexander I and his mysterious "death"?
Cats: You just gotta love them!

Offline Tsarfan

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1848
  • Miss the kings, but not the kingdoms
    • View Profile
Re: Date of Founding of Romanov Dynasty
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2013, 11:31:39 AM »
Has anyone ever made a movie about Alexander I and his mysterious "death"?

None that I can find.

Offline edubs31

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1011
    • View Profile
Re: Date of Founding of Romanov Dynasty
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2013, 11:42:12 AM »
Has anyone ever made a movie about Alexander I and his mysterious "death"?

None that I can find.

It'll be next on my list of things. The fledgling filmmaker that I am!

Tsarfan, merging back onto the topic after our little detour there. What would you say is the single most significant date in Romanov history? Not any year necessarily (for the answer to that would likely be 1613 or 1917), but what date. I'm curious if multiple things happened on one, like Mikhail Feoderovich born and dying on July 12th.

There seems to have been a few odd occurrences connected to July 16/17th for example.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right...

Offline Tsarfan

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1848
  • Miss the kings, but not the kingdoms
    • View Profile
Re: Date of Founding of Romanov Dynasty
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2013, 11:54:16 AM »
How much of the world was full of crappy rulers in the early-20th century? Or how much of it was simply a case of those rulers on an unavoidable collision course with history?

There was a promising ruler-in-the-wings in the person of Franz Ferdinand, who was quietly laying plans to liberalize the Hapsburg system, confer greater rights on ethnic minorities, and introduce limited self-government in non-German regions of the empire.  Wilhelm II was rather horrified by what he saw in his meetings with Franz Ferdinand, and that was always a good sign.  And it was a prime reason, beyond even the morganatic marriage I think, that left Emperor Franz Josef cool toward his heir and cynically indifferent to his death.

To me the greatest political tragedy of World War I was not that the monarchical system collapsed in Europe but that the man who might have been able to chart a peaceable path to royal liberalization and set an example for others was killed before he had a chance.

There was a time in European history when monarchies laid the paths out of chaos, reined in the pretensions of the Church, set the conditions for modern commercial economies, fostered art and industry, supported science, and even improved the lot of the common man.  By the end of the 19th century they had all become forces of reaction against the flow of history rather than clearers of its path.  Franz Ferdinand was the only person on the scene who had any potential at all for bringing European monarchy back to its original mission of progressive rule.

Greg King will soon publish a book on this interesting man which I believe will add to the relatively scant understanding of him.

Offline LadyHezter

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 43
    • View Profile
Re: Date of Founding of Romanov Dynasty
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2013, 12:05:49 PM »
Has anyone ever made a movie about Alexander I and his mysterious "death"?

None that I can find.

It'll be next on my list of things. The fledgling filmmaker that I am!

Tsarfan, merging back onto the topic after our little detour there. What would you say is the single most significant date in Romanov history? Not any year necessarily (for the answer to that would likely be 1613 or 1917), but what date. I'm curious if multiple things happened on one, like Mikhail Feoderovich born and dying on July 12th.

There seems to have been a few odd occurrences connected to July 16/17th for example.


Well, didnīt Peter III die (was assasinated ? ) the 17 july,too.? ( new style)

And   IF   he wasnīt the father of emperor Paul ,as rumours suggests, then THAT was the end of the real Romanov dynasty.


L.H



Offline Tsarfan

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1848
  • Miss the kings, but not the kingdoms
    • View Profile
Re: Date of Founding of Romanov Dynasty
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2013, 12:09:18 PM »
What would you say is the single most significant date in Romanov history?

I would say the most significant date in modern Russian history was 27 June 1709 -- the Battle of Poltava.  This battle set the stage for Russia's emergence on the world scene as the dominant power of northern Europe.

I would say the most significant date in Romanov history was 13 March 1881 -- the date on which Alexander II was assassinated just days before he was to release his plan for an elected Duma.  That marked the end of the last serious effort to modernize Russian government and set the stage for the revolution that was going to bring down the monarchy.  An elected Duma and the expansion of representative government was the only chance -- though perhaps a long shot -- of addressing and defusing the issues arising from emancipation of the serfs and industrialization of Russia, issues to which his two successors paid woefully inadequate attention.

Offline edubs31

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1011
    • View Profile
Re: Date of Founding of Romanov Dynasty
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2013, 12:35:44 PM »
Quote
To me the greatest political tragedy of World War I was not that the monarchical system collapsed in Europe but that the man who might have been able to chart a peaceable path to royal liberalization and set an example for others was killed before he had a chance.

Interesting isn't it? The same person who had the opportunity to chart that peaceable path away from auto and semi-autocratic rule wound up being the excuse, through his own assassination, for the other ancient monarchies to engage in war with each other. The Tsar and the Kaiser, etc, should have given Gavrilo Princip a medal, not fought a disastrous war because of his actions...now tell me that history doesn't have a twisted sense of humor!

Quote
Well, didnīt Peter III die (was assasinated ? ) the 17 july,too.? ( new style)

And   IF   he wasnīt the father of emperor Paul ,as rumours suggests, then THAT was the end of the real Romanov dynasty.

Actually LadyH the date July 16/17 is extremely significant in Romanov history. Not only was Peter III and Nicholas II killed on that day, but the young Ivan VI also. Three Romanov rulers dying on the same day is coincidence enough, but all three having been murdered is pretty incredible.

Another symbolic date would of course be February 8th. Ivan V who co-ruled with his brother Peter I for fourteen years died, and then Peter the Great himself would die on the same date some 29-years later.

Less significant but interesting are the births of Feodor III and Peter I, both of whom were born on June 9th.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 12:37:16 PM by edubs31 »
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right...

Offline Tsarfan

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1848
  • Miss the kings, but not the kingdoms
    • View Profile
Re: Date of Founding of Romanov Dynasty
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2013, 01:51:31 PM »
Interesting isn't it? The same person who had the opportunity to chart that peaceable path away from auto and semi-autocratic rule wound up being the excuse, through his own assassination, for the other ancient monarchies to engage in war with each other.

A lot of people misunderstand the real role monarchy played in European history, linking the interests of the monarchy and the nobility against the lower orders when the original linkage -- and the linkage found when monarchy was performing best -- was between the monarchy and the lower orders against the nobility.

In the early period of nation state formation, the title of king was one that put the holder at the top of a network of feudal relationships, not necessarily one of political dominance.  In fact, many medieval kings controlled less land and wealth than their great nobles, and the reach of the king's law often stopped at the border of the lands the king owned outright.  The first great service of monarchy was to subordinate the political power of the great nobles to that of a central government, thereby reducing and finally eliminating the constant clan warfare of the countryside.  To a medieval citizen, the political goal he most desired was to live "under the king's peace".

A common thread among the most notable reigns of Europe was the systematic undercutting of real noble power, often distracting the nobility from its true interests by giving them the charms and baubles of higher titles, more social privilege, more tempting royal courts in which to strut and prance in luxury.  Louis XIV was the great master of these tactics, using the chateau of Versailles as a potent political tool.  But they also marked the reign of Peter the Great, who created ranks of merit and forced much of his grudging nobility into education and pursuits more useful to the state.  And they marked the reign of Alexander II, who took on his nobility in emancipating the serfs.

And a common thread among the least successful reigns was the monarch coming too much under the sway of his nobility:  reigns such as those of Louis XVI, Mary Queen of Scots, James I/IV (at least after adding the English crown to his wardrobe).

Then there were two monarchs whose deaths might have been caused, at least in part, by their favoring broader interests over those of their nobilities:  Richard III and Paul.

Franz Ferdinand's death was welcomed in some royal quarters, in part, because he was showing signs of aligning himself against entrenched court interests.  In effect, the monarchs of the late 19th century almost universally failed to understand the nature of the relationships among social orders that worked best for monarchy.  And this misunderstanding brought about the fall of those monarchies that failed in this understanding.

It is no coincidence that there is still a monarchy in England, the European country where the king's law supplanted the rights of nobles over their domains and the people in them earliest and most deeply.


Three Romanov rulers dying on the same day is coincidence enough, but all three having been murdered is pretty incredible.

What's even more incredible is that of the six Romanovs who met violent ends (counting Peter I's son Alexei), four were killed by their family or court intimates.  It's one of the reasons I don't get so horrified by the deaths of Alexander II and Nicholas II at the hands of the people.  The Romanovs were considerably more murderous toward their own than their people were toward them.  (And this is not even counting the plans Sophia had up her sleeve regarding her two brothers had the Streltsy been willing to do her bidding, or the several of Peter's kin who were killed in 1682 when the Miloslavsky faction rose up against the Naryshkin faction at court.)  The Romanovs could be quite a nasty piece of work when their interests got crossed.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 02:01:59 PM by Tsarfan »

Offline TimM

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1903
    • View Profile
    • Rex and Hannah Chronicles Wikia
Re: Date of Founding of Romanov Dynasty
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2013, 03:32:47 PM »
Quote
It is no coincidence that there is still a monarchy in England, the European country where the king's law supplanted the rights of nobles over their domains and the people in them earliest and most deeply

And of course, their monarchy evolved and changed with the times.  Most of the others clung to the past, and lost everything as a result.
Cats: You just gotta love them!