Author Topic: 1905 Bloody Sunday  (Read 147549 times)

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Alixz

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Re: 1905 Bloody Sunday
« Reply #600 on: February 27, 2007, 08:28:57 AM »
One more thought about the difference in the atmosphere between 1905 and 1914.  During that nine years, much happened in Russia, but not much of what Gapon was looking for came about.

Yes, The Duma was elected, but its powers were limited by Nicholas's ability to over ride anything it might do. Or his ability to close it down altogether if he so chose.

Ministers came and went and Stolipyn was murdered.

Yet, on that day and for a time after that day, the Russian people truly did believe in Batuska Tsar.  With so much hostility toward the tsar during the prior nine years, August 1914 came as a complete and unexpected turn around in public reaction and support.  Was the declaration of war enough to affect this turn around?  Did the workers and peasant farmers "forget" in one moment the grievances of the past nine years and more?

It seems almost impossible that the declaration of war could have "erased"  all of the hatred.  Even the students came around.

So what am I saying? 

Perhaps if the war had only "lasted until Christmas" (which of course, echos the cries of the Union and Confederate soldiers in April 1861 and which of course, was equally impossible in either case) then Nicholas might have remained popular enough to remain on the throne.

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: 1905 Bloody Sunday
« Reply #601 on: February 27, 2007, 09:11:18 AM »
The Russian capital was built on part of the Finnish swamp and has a German name. However had Princess Victoria of Battenburg looked beyond the trees

But it wasn't Victoria--it was her sister, the Empress, who made the comment. She wrote it to Victoria.
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Offline James1941

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Re: 1905 Bloody Sunday
« Reply #602 on: February 27, 2007, 12:33:27 PM »
Kurt is quite right about the Peterloo Masacre of 1819. History does teach valuable lessons. The Tory government congratulated the Manchester magistrates whose actions led to the the massacre. It then passed restrictive laws--the Six Acts--or the Gagging Laws--which tried to limit demands for reform. This led to the alienation of the Tory party, to the rise of the Chartists, and the fall of the conservative party. Just eleven years after the massacre the Tories were swept from power and in 1832 the Reform Acts were passed. The monarchy was not held to blame, although both George IV and William IV were highly unpopular, and very partisan. The century between the Glorious Revolution and then had seen the dimuition of the power of the monarchy and the rise of shared responsibility and shielded the throne from direct involvement in the controversy. Thus the myth that the sovereign was above the politics could be maintained and public anger directed at the party politicians. Since no such situtation existed in Russia, mainly because of the monarchy's enforcement of its own myths, the throne got the blame and the anger.

Offline vladm

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Re: 1905 Bloody Sunday
« Reply #603 on: February 27, 2007, 02:23:11 PM »
I found interesting article by Ivan Solonevich, about 1917 February revolution and he compares with 1905, as he called revolution (I have tendency to agree with him).
Unfortunately book again in Russian, and would be difficult to translate, because of the size. But he makes interesting analogy, he considered events from 1905 it was Revolution, and February 1917 as putsch.
And he considers elements of Revolutionary situation in Russia, back in 1917 was significantly lower than 1905.
http://www.rus-sky.org/history/library/february.htm

That article, confirm a lot of my theories about events of 1917, but also completely revising my point of view on 1905.
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Offline James1941

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Re: 1905 Bloody Sunday
« Reply #604 on: February 27, 2007, 07:19:46 PM »
All the major powers in World War I were undergoing change in governments in late 1916-early 1917 due to the fact that the war wasn't going very well for either side.
In Germany, in Aug. 1916 Field Marshal Paul von Hindenburg became Chief of the General Staff, and his partner, General Erick Luddendorf became Quarter Master General. The two became virtual dictators of Germany. In July, 1917 they finally got German Chancellor Bethman-Hollweg to resgin to be replaced by several unknowns.
In Austria, in Nov. 1916, Franz Josef dies and Karl become Emperor-King. He begins to replace generals and ministers and begin attempts to end the war.
In Britain, in Dec. 1916, Herbert Asquith is replaced as Prime Minister by David Lloyd-George and a coalition cabinet.
In Italy, there are three prime minister Salandra until June, 1916: Boselli from June to Oct. 1917, then Orlando.
In France, there is a constant change of prime minister and commander in chiefs.
Aristide Briand (Oct. 1915-Mar. 1917) Alexandre Ribot (Mar-Sept 1917) Paul Panleve (Sept-Nov. 1917) and Georges Clemenceau. Joffre is dismissed as Army commander in 1916, replaced by Robert Nivelle, who is then replaced by Philippe Petain.
It would only make sense then that it would also happen in Russia. Notice, however, that in all the cases above the head of state was not changed. In Russia since Nicholas II was regarded as army commander and head of the government he was replaced. (I know he wasn't technically head of government but he functioned that way under the "limited autocracy" in place.)
 A putsch is probably a good description of what happened in Feb. 1917. It turned into a revolution later.

Offline lexi4

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Re: 1905 Bloody Sunday
« Reply #605 on: February 27, 2007, 08:48:24 PM »
Yes, that the dowager empress and the grand duchess thought that is very interesting. I believe that the Grand Duke Paul, and also the Grand Duke Vladimir also believed he should have met with the delegation.
Several of his ministers probably thought that also, but because of the nature of the imperial government Nicholas did not see all the various opinions and options open to him. There was no cabinet government in Russia. By that I mean that the tsar appointed ministers to the council of ministers based on his own wishes rather than having a cabinet in which the prime ministers appoints the ministers. There was a Chairman of the Council of Ministers, or prime minister. In Feb. 1905 this was Witte. He was not informed of the meetings prior to the march in which measures were taken to deal with the matter, and he did not make the report to the tsar the night before. In a true cabinet government, Nicholas would have appointed the prime minister of his choice, then that person would have appointed all the ministers of state. In this way he would have a cabinet that would act in unison rather than against one another. Stolypin, for all his faults, was a good prime minister, but he complained that he spent most of his time fighting against the other ministers in the cabinet, trying to get a unified direction of policy, and it wore him out. Had there been a true cabinet government before Bloody Sunday, they would have debated, discussed, argued, but in the end settled on a unifed response to the crisis. Instead, each ministry, the military, and the city authorities all acted in independent ways and only tangentally together. Here is a part of the tragedy.



James1941,
I agree. I think your post shows again how obtuse Nicholas was. He was steeped in the belief that he was annoited by God to rule and therefore could not give up any control he had. In some ways, I think he might have been conflicted about the Duma. By that I mean, he agreed to it, then changed his mind etc. So it does seem that he did struggle with the idea. From infancy, he had been taught that the Tsar was annoited by God to rule all of Russia. Yet, in Nicholas's time, that was changing. At some level, I wonder if he knew the change was needed, why else would he agree, although briefly, to a Duma?
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Offline lexi4

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Re: 1905 Bloody Sunday
« Reply #606 on: February 27, 2007, 08:51:15 PM »
Kurt,
Maybe that is the problem...trying to figure out where to place the blame. Maybe there is no blame, just poor choices with consequences. There are always consequences. I wonder how things would have evolved had Nicholas took the advice of his mother and sister. We'll never know that.

I absolutely agree, Lexi. Excuse me all if I'm going to be too philosophical -that's me....-, but I think that our life is nothing but a chain of choices and consequences -related directly or undirectly to our choices-. Sometimes we are right, sometimes we are wrong. Sometimes we are damned if we do, sometimes we are damned if we don't.


Kurt,
No need to apologize for getting philosophical...I do that as well. I think it is perfectly acceptable to consider philosophy in discussions such as this.
Lexi
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Offline Belochka

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Re: 1905 Bloody Sunday
« Reply #607 on: February 28, 2007, 05:34:20 AM »
The Russian capital was built on part of the Finnish swamp and has a German name. However had Princess Victoria of Battenburg looked beyond the trees

But it wasn't Victoria--it was her sister, the Empress, who made the comment. She wrote it to Victoria.

Thanks for the correction.

Margarita
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Offline Belochka

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Re: 1905 Bloody Sunday
« Reply #608 on: March 01, 2007, 07:10:35 AM »
I found interesting article by Ivan Solonevich, about 1917 February revolution and he compares with 1905 ...

... And he considers elements of Revolutionary situation in Russia, back in 1917 was significantly lower than 1905.
http://www.rus-sky.org/history/library/february.htm

Thank you Vladm!

I have read the article and decided to print it so that I could re-read it in more comfort.

It is a fascinating read. A number of issues are worthy of further discussion. There are a couple of points which he presents that I find inadequate and others that have astonished me. Much of what he writes has supported my own view.

It is a pity that the bibliography is missing, although most of his sources are not difficult to work out.

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Offline James1941

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Re: 1905 Bloody Sunday
« Reply #609 on: March 01, 2007, 09:26:34 AM »
I don't want to sound xenophobic but I would like to read the article also. To my regret my Russian is non-existent. Is this article available in English so that those of us who love Russian history can look it over? Or is it possible to translate the page somehow? I know certain sites can be translated. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Offline vladm

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Re: 1905 Bloody Sunday
« Reply #610 on: March 01, 2007, 02:13:12 PM »
James, I used automatic translator, please check if you can read this:
http://www.virtualpushkin.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=112
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Offline James1941

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Re: 1905 Bloody Sunday
« Reply #611 on: March 01, 2007, 05:35:33 PM »
It did indeed work perfectly. I have saved a copy to read at my leisure. Thank you for your very kind assistance. I look forward to reading his work. I am grateful.

Offline vladm

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Re: 1905 Bloody Sunday
« Reply #612 on: March 01, 2007, 05:42:49 PM »
It did indeed work perfectly. I have saved a copy to read at my leisure. Thank you for your very kind assistance. I look forward to reading his work. I am grateful.
I used following translator: http://www.online-translator.com/srvurl.asp?lang=en
in order to understand better, please enable following option "Transliterate unknown words" [ x ]
« Last Edit: March 01, 2007, 05:45:35 PM by vladm »
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Offline Kurt Steiner

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Re: 1905 Bloody Sunday
« Reply #613 on: March 02, 2007, 04:31:51 AM »
Thank you very much, Vladm!

Offline lexi4

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Re: 1905 Bloody Sunday
« Reply #614 on: March 03, 2007, 10:19:50 PM »
I miss Tsarfan, Elisabeth and Bev. They sure could keep a discussion going.  :'(
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"