Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?

[TimM]

I read somewhere once, can't remember where, in which Alexandra said that the Germany of World War One, was no longer the Germany of her birth.  That Kaiser Wilhelm II had changed it.

So, I have to wonder, what would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler and what he did to Germany?  His regime was much worse than the Kaiser's.  Would Alexandra have been horrified and repulsed at what Hitler did?  Would she have wondered just why her people went along with it?  How would she have felt when Hitler launched Operation Barbarossa against Russia, her adopted country (which did a lot more damage to Russia than the Kaiser's army did).

In our alternate reality story, Days Of OTMA's Lives, RHB and I touched upon this.  Given glimpses of the future, Alexandra is horrified.  Here is a line I wrote:

I love Russia, but Germany is the land of my birth, and will always have a place in my heart.  What Hitler and those like him are doing there makes me sick, it makes me ashamed of being German, and I hate that!  I HATE THAT!

I think it captures the feeling well.  One has to wonder if Alexandra had really lived, would she have felt the same.

Interesting note, one of Alexandra's favourite symbols was the swastika.  Before the Nazis adopted it for their party, it used to mean good fortune, or something to that effect.   Needless to say, that has changed.

What  do you all think?

[edubs31]

When I first saw the title of this topic my thoughts went immediately to Alexandra's use of the swastika as a good luck charm, so it's interesting that you brought it Tim. Of course there was no connection between her affection of the symbol and it's use by the German National Socialist party...but it does provide an interesting coincidence. Two reviled Germans, world leaders, and neither having lived to see the end of their respective devastating wars.

Fortunately the similarities pretty much end there, although one must draw parallels between the treatment of the Jews by the Nazi's & Romanovs. To say that neither Hitler nor Alexandra warmed to their local Jewish population would be a gross understatement. They important difference however was that whereas the former wanted to exterminate the Jews, the attitude of the latter seemed to be more along the lines of wanting to keep the "in their place" and out of the way. I suppose it also could be argued that a Nicholas and Alexandra resented Judaism as many many devout Christians have throughout history. At least when it comes to N&A, and I say this cautiously, their resentment and dislike of the Jews can be understood (albeit not excused) by viewing it through the lens of their strong religiosity...none such claim or rationalization can be made of Hitler and the bulk of Nazi Germany who, by and large, were not nearly as connected to the Christian faith, and seemed to use Christ for symbolic purposes (in their extermination of the Jews) only.

To actually try and answer your question Tim, I think Alexandra would have been mortified by Hitler much in the same way she grew to despise Wilhelm. While I'm certain she would have dissaproved of the Holocaust I doubt it would have been the primary focus of her hatred towards Hitler (just as it clearly was not FDRs, and certainly not Stalin's). I think her hatred for Hitler and Kaiser would have been roughly equal then. On one hand she surely would have been more hostile towards the motives and plans for world domination and German supremacy engineered by Hitler. But as a man I believed she would have seen his rise as the result of the failing of Wilhelm and, perhaps, a product of that very same Germany -unrecognizably corrupted - that you touched on above. On this other hand it's almost hard to imagine her sense of betrayal and resentment of Hitler being worse than that of Willy.

Let me wrap things up by answering you in the form of a question...Would Alexandra have approved, to some degree, of Hitler in the wake of Stalin's brutal tyranny and dismantling of the Russian empire she once ruled?

Just as much of the UK, US and other allies viewed Stalin as a necessary evil to combat the aggression of Hitler, would an elderly and embittered Alexandra (deposed former Empress to a country that never warmed to her) have privately supported Nazi Germany in their military forays against the now Soviet Union?

[TimM]

On one hand she surely would have been more hostile towards the motives and plans for world domination and German supremacy engineered by Hitler. But as a man I believed she would have seen his rise as the result of the failing of Wilhelm and, perhaps, a product of that very same Germany -unrecognizably corrupted - that you touched on above. On this other hand it's almost hard to imagine her sense of betrayal and resentment of Hitler being worse than that of Willy.

Yeah, this was definitely NOT the Germany of her birth.

Would Alexandra have approved, to some degree, of Hitler in the wake of Stalin's brutal tyranny and dismantling of the Russian empire she once ruled?

Just as much of the UK, US and other allies viewed Stalin as a necessary evil to combat the aggression of Hitler, would an elderly and embittered Alexandra (deposed former Empress to a country that never warmed to her) have privately supported Nazi Germany in their military forays against the now Soviet Union?

I rather think they would have been horrified at the Nazi atrocities committed in Russia.  The Nazis considered the Slavs, the Russian population, little better than the Jews, people to be wiped off the face of the Earth. Nicholas and Alexandra would have been appalled at this wanton slaughter of their people, regardless of how they felt about Stalin (some have said had Hitler made allies of the people in the areas of Russia he controlled, the Nazi invasion of Russia might have succeeded).

[edubs31]

I rather think they would have been horrified at the Nazi atrocities committed in Russia.  The Nazis considered the Slavs, the Russian population, little better than the Jews, people to be wiped off the face of the Earth. Nicholas and Alexandra would have been appalled at this wanton slaughter of their people, regardless of how they felt about Stalin (some have said had Hitler made allies of the people in the areas of Russia he controlled, the Nazi invasion of Russia might have succeeded).

You're probably right Tim. For all their faults as leaders and their many personal foibles, Nicholas & Alexandra were sensitive souls who abhorred death and cruelty. Still I guess I can see them having at least mixed feelings on the topic of WW2. Of course you never get to choose the outcome, but I think the best case scenario in the eyes of N&A would have been for Russia to have survived and the Nazi's crushed (as did ultimately happen), but for Hitler to have enjoyed just enough success to where the Russian government might again have been overthrown.

Perhaps N&A would have tried to rationalize it much in the same way as they did WWI when they refused to make separate peace with Germany. As in, millions might die, and that's heartbreaking, but not as bad as being dominated by a foreign power and turning one's back on your loyal allies. Millions more died in WW2, but had it brought about regime change I think this could have been viewed as acceptable compromise.

Not surprisingly Lenin too held rather contradictory views on the War. On one hand he detested the slaughter of millions in the defense of the monarchy, capitalism and the bourgeois. On the other hand he courted it as the necessary means by which his revolution was fueled...terror, fear, power, death. A recipe for success! Lenin and his fellow radicals both loved the Great War and hated it.

[TimM]

Of course you never get to choose the outcome, but I think the best case scenario in the eyes of N&A would have been for Russia to have survived and the Nazi's crushed (as did ultimately happen), but for Hitler to have enjoyed just enough success to where the Russian government might again have been overthrown.

And N&A would help Russia pick up the pieces.  It would have been fitting had the Nazi and Communist regimes destroyed each other, in their eyes (and probably in the eyes of the Western Allies, Churchill made no secret of his distrust of Stalin).  This might have led Russia to put N&A back on the throne, albeit as Constitutional Monarchs.

As much as Alix didn't like Willie and what he did, she probably would rather have had him ruling Germany instead of Hitler.

[edubs31]

Of course you never get to choose the outcome, but I think the best case scenario in the eyes of N&A would have been for Russia to have survived and the Nazi's crushed (as did ultimately happen), but for Hitler to have enjoyed just enough success to where the Russian government might again have been overthrown.

And N&A would help Russia pick up the pieces.  It would have been fitting had the Nazi and Communist regimes destroyed each other, in their eyes (and probably in the eyes of the Western Allies, Churchill made no secret of his distrust of Stalin).  This might have led Russia to put N&A back on the throne, albeit as Constitutional Monarchs.

As much as Alix didn't like Willie and what he did, she probably would rather have had him ruling Germany instead of Hitler.

Assuming for a moment that both we still alive in WW2. Germany invaded Poland in 1939. Nicholas would have been 71 and Alexandra, chronically unhealthy, would have been 67. I think highly unlikely that even if Nicholas were still alive that he'd be called back into service. Russia likely had enough of the Romanovs and certainly enough of Nicholas II.

So Alexei then? Who knows...I think there's a good chance the poor boy wouldn't have survived many more years of his disease. Michael was killed, and Kirill died in 1938, so the crown would have been passed to (gulp!) Boris Vladimirovich.

I don't know about anyone else, but GD Boris as emperor might be enough to have convince even me to join the Soviets! lol

[TimM]

Well, if you toss out the Pauline Laws, and that would be possible, then GD Olga would be crowned.

[edubs31]

Well, if you toss out the Pauline Laws, and that would be possible, then GD Olga would be crowned.

Now that would be nice!

I think she would have certainly had the intelligence but perhaps not the temperament to lead. Tatiana would seem like a better fit to me actually. Of course we have no way of knowing how these young women would have progressed through the years. They would both been well into their 40s, and likely to have had families of their own, by the time such an opportunity would have presented itself.

I forget Tim, in your "Bid Time" how far into the future does the IF make it? I knew you highlighted the 20s and Tatiana becoming a doctor (or nurse was it?), etc, but while your portrayal was more fantasy than "What if", I'm guessing you were compelled to think about how things might actually have played out should they all have lived.

[Jen_94]

I'm sure there were talks, at one point, about considering Olga to be the heir? I'm sure I read that somewhere. But I do agree with edubs31 on that one, Tatiana would have definitely have the temperament to lead the Russian Empire and would have fit the role better, i.e. A natural leadership. Whereas Olga was the more sensitive one, with not the temperament to lead a country such as big as Russia.

Here in the UK, The line of succession is the Queen's sons and their children, then Anne comes at around 10th (soon 11th). Charles, 2nd, Andrew 4th and Edward, 7th. I believe they changed the laws though or something, didn't they? So that if William and Kate's first born is a girl, they can still rule.

[edubs31]

I'm sure there were talks, at one point, about considering Olga to be the heir?

Possibly. Kept quiet certainly, just as the reason for their talks would have been...Alexei's frail health. That's the only reason why it would have been given any consideration at all. Of course Nicholas still had one younger living brother in Michael who would have much preferred by many over the changing of the laws to allow for Olga's ascension to the throne. 

I'm sure I read that somewhere. But I do agree with edubs31 on that one, Tatiana would have definitely have the temperament to lead the Russian Empire and would have fit the role better, i.e. A natural leadership. Whereas Olga was the more sensitive one, with not the temperament to lead a country such as big as Russia.

Olga had a strong and clever mind, I'm just not sure if it would have been right for such a major leadership role. Of course none of OTMA during their lives had the type of social interactions and experience necessary in order to handle this role. But I get the sense as they grew older they could have fit into it eventually.

Tatiana was also said to have been the most popular and admired by the Russian people during her lifetime. Some of this probably owes to her incredible beauty, but also her nursing activities during the war, her sense of duty (be it known to many or not) and the general way in which she carried herself resonated quite well with the people. Simply put, she had the look and style of a future empress.

Here in the UK, The line of succession is the Queen's sons and their children, then Anne comes at around 10th (soon 11th). Charles, 2nd, Andrew 4th and Edward, 7th. I believe they changed the laws though or something, didn't they? So that if William and Kate's first born is a girl, they can still rule.

Someone can explain this better than I as it's rather confusing. The 'Administration of Estates Act in 1925' abolished primogeniture, but the line of succession still runs through male children. For instance, you mentioned Anne, eldest daughter of Queen Elizabeth but she and her children are only fourth in the line of succession even though she is older than two of her three brothers.

On the other hand Princess Beatrice and Eugenie are 5th and 6th in the line of succession, ahead of their aunt Anne and their uncle Edward. The only people who are in front of them are Prince Charles, his two sons, and their father Andrew, Duke of York.

[TimM]

I forget Tim, in your "Bid Time" how far into the future does the IF make it?

If you mean Days, it ends in the late 1920's, although glimpses farther into the future reveal the entire family is alive at the end of World War II.

I knew you highlighted the 20s and Tatiana becoming a doctor (or nurse was it?), etc, but while your portrayal was more fantasy than "What if", I'm guessing you were compelled to think about how things might actually have played out should they all have lived.

Tatiana became a doctor.  RHB and I started with her deciding to go back into nursing, and then just took it to the next level.

[edubs31]

I forget Tim, in your "Bid Time" how far into the future does the IF make it?

If you mean Days, it ends in the late 1920's, although glimpses farther into the future reveal the entire family is alive at the end of World War II.

I knew you highlighted the 20s and Tatiana becoming a doctor (or nurse was it?), etc, but while your portrayal was more fantasy than "What if", I'm guessing you were compelled to think about how things might actually have played out should they all have lived.

Tatiana became a doctor.  RHB and I started with her deciding to go back into nursing, and then just took it to the next level.

"Days", yes, sorry got confused there. I remember reading your "Bid Time" and how they lived long and far into the future after being rescued on 7/17/18.

You should keep writing "Days" Tim. I know it's less entertaining without a writing partner (and since I'm working on my own little project I'm unable to be of service to you for now), but little by little you could probably make your way along and up through the 30s to WW2.

[TimM]

You should keep writing "Days" Tim. I know it's less entertaining without a writing partner (and since I'm working on my own little project I'm unable to be of service to you for now), but little by little you could probably make your way along and up through the 30s to WW2.

Someday, who knows.

As I said, it was Days that inspired this thread.  We make it clear that Alexandra is horrified at what Hitler intends to do to her native and adopted countries. 

[Jen_94]

I'm sure there were talks, at one point, about considering Olga to be the heir?

Possibly. Kept quiet certainly, just as the reason for their talks would have been...Alexei's frail health. That's the only reason why it would have been given any consideration at all. Of course Nicholas still had one younger living brother in Michael who would have much preferred by many over the changing of the laws to allow for Olga's ascension to the throne. 

I'm sure I read that somewhere. But I do agree with edubs31 on that one, Tatiana would have definitely have the temperament to lead the Russian Empire and would have fit the role better, i.e. A natural leadership. Whereas Olga was the more sensitive one, with not the temperament to lead a country such as big as Russia.

Olga had a strong and clever mind, I'm just not sure if it would have been right for such a major leadership role. Of course none of OTMA during their lives had the type of social interactions and experience necessary in order to handle this role. But I get the sense as they grew older they could have fit into it eventually.

Tatiana was also said to have been the most popular and admired by the Russian people during her lifetime. Some of this probably owes to her incredible beauty, but also her nursing activities during the war, her sense of duty (be it known to many or not) and the general way in which she carried herself resonated quite well with the people. Simply put, she had the look and style of a future empress.

Here in the UK, The line of succession is the Queen's sons and their children, then Anne comes at around 10th (soon 11th). Charles, 2nd, Andrew 4th and Edward, 7th. I believe they changed the laws though or something, didn't they? So that if William and Kate's first born is a girl, they can still rule.

Someone can explain this better than I as it's rather confusing. The 'Administration of Estates Act in 1925' abolished primogeniture, but the line of succession still runs through male children. For instance, you mentioned Anne, eldest daughter of Queen Elizabeth but she and her children are only fourth in the line of succession even though she is older than two of her three brothers.

On the other hand Princess Beatrice and Eugenie are 5th and 6th in the line of succession, ahead of their aunt Anne and their uncle Edward. The only people who are in front of them are Prince Charles, his two sons, and their father Andrew, Duke of York.

Yep, I'm certain it was to do with Alexei's frail health. Do agree Olga had the strong and clever mind, yes. And I definitely would think Tatiana would have been the best one to carry herself as Tsarina out of all four sisters. i.e. as you mentioned, her sense of duty, her popularity among the Russian People and the way she carried herself. She could work well under pressure too, couldn't she? That quality would definitely be needed in someone who is in line to the throne, i.e. 2nd or 3rd to the Throne, as I imagine it is ALOT of pressure being a Monarch.

Thanks for that information! You explained it well I thought.

[TimM]

Getting this thread back a bit on topic...

I would have to agree that, although Nicky and Alix were not fans of the Jews, I think the Holocaust would be going too far even for them.  Nowhere in the writings of any of the Romanovs, is there mention of wiping the Jews off the face of the Earth.

They would never support the Nazis and their Final Solution, IMHO.