Author Topic: Questionable titles  (Read 58561 times)

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Offline bongo

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Questionable titles
« on: February 09, 2014, 08:36:29 PM »
I've just come across (link below) "Grand Duchess Olga Kulikovskaya-Romanova", otherwise referenced in her visits to Russia as "Princess Olga Kulikovskaya-Romanova"

Who?

Turns out she's Mrs Olga Kulikovsky, wife of Tikhon, who was the son of Grand Duchess Olga's husband Colonel Nikolai Kulikovsky.

Neither Nikolai nor his sons EVER received imperial titles as far as I'm aware, and down-to-earth Grand Duchess Olga had little time for flummery, so when did the Kulikovskys start assuming nobility?

Apart from the antics of Maria Vladimirovna, is this the most eyebrow-raising example of questionable titles?

(http://en.ria.ru/world/20071010/83313209.html)

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Questionable titles
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2014, 04:17:15 AM »
Even if Olga's marriage to Nikolai Kulikovsky had been 'equal' under the Pauline Law, their sons would have gained any titles from their father, not their mother, unless Nicholas II had seen fit to give them titles. Just to clarify the point, if Olga's marriage to Peter of Oldenburg had produced any children, they would have been Princes/Princesses of Oldenburg.

Perhaps Mrs Kulikovsky has developed delusions of grandeur. Tikhon was born in 1917, so unless she was a lot younger than him when they married, she must be pretty ancient now.

Ann

Offline Превед

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Re: Questionable titles
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2014, 01:14:45 PM »
so when did the Kulikovskys start assuming nobility?

The Kulikovskys are old nobility, going back to at least the 16th century, of Wallachian origin. (BTW the Kullikovskiys were big landowners in the Ukraine - and Borki (of railway accident fame) was one of their estates.) Here are their arms: Куликовские
But assuming pretensions to royalty, that is something else.

Just to clarify the point, if Olga's marriage to Peter of Oldenburg had produced any children, they would have been Princes/Princesses of Oldenburg.
And Dukes of Schleswig, Holstein, Stormarn, Dithmarschen and Oldenburg and Heirs to Norway, just like their Holstein-Gottorp-Romanov cousins.

Tikhon was born in 1917, so unless she was a lot younger than him when they married, she must be pretty ancient now.

Seems like Olga ne Pupynin, firstly married Burton?, was born in Serbia in 1926.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 01:32:15 PM by Превед »
Березы севера мне милы,
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Как речь безмолвная могилы,
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(Афанасий Фет: Ивы и березы, 1843 / 1856)

Offline bongo

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Re: Questionable titles
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2014, 10:49:36 PM »
Quote
she must be pretty ancient now.

She's in her eighties.

Interesting to hear the Kulikovskys are old nobility. But given that millions of Russians were entitled to call themselves noble, not such a big deal. It was interesting to read Former People and its observation that nobility in Russia was always a service class, not a exclusive clique except amongst the handful of tippy top families.

I remember watching a TV show on french couture in the 80s when a reporter asked the very snooty baroness hostess what was the origin of her title. She perceptively stiffened before spitting out "Wussian!" The eye-rolling look on the reporter's face said it all : a crap title. It was just an hilarious classic moment.

The farcical shenanigans of the various Russian nobility associations, including even Maria Vladimirovna trying to read the riot act (gotta love the way she wields the medieval expression "lose my favour") have certainly precluded public respect.

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Questionable titles
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2014, 03:48:12 AM »
Interesting that the Kulikovsky coat of arms has a crest which looks quite remarkably like the Prince of Wales's feathers. as I can't read Russian, does the article say anything about this?

Ann

Offline Превед

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Re: Questionable titles
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2014, 09:45:48 AM »
Interesting that the Kulikovsky coat of arms has a crest which looks quite remarkably like the Prince of Wales's feathers. as I can't read Russian, does the article say anything about this?

Actually, it seems ostrich feather crests were rather run-of-the-mill for untitled Russian nobility. Only occassionally do you come across the idiosyncratic crests known from West European heraldry, most often among the Baltic nobility. Otherwise it's either ostrich feathers, sabre-wielding arms or, as an augmentation, the imperial eagle.

The Kulikovskys seem to share some aspects of their arms with (or borrowed it?) from the eponymous Polish family: Kulikowski, which allegedly belongs to the "Drogomir" clan of arms. These arms, a triskele, which is found in the Russian Kulikovskys' arms are of course the same as those of the Kingdom of Man!

I remember watching a TV show on french couture in the 80s when a reporter asked the very snooty baroness hostess what was the origin of her title. She perceptively stiffened before spitting out "Wussian!" The eye-rolling look on the reporter's face said it all : a crap title. It was just an hilarious classic moment.

LOL!
But a Russian baronial title is far from always "inferior" (in terms of antiquity) to a French baronial title, which usually dates from the First Empire, as very few ancien-rgime baronial families failed to "(auto-)upgrade" to viscount or count. Most of the Russian baronial titles are of Baltic German provenance, often quite ancient. To be a Баронесса Буксгевден / Freiin von Buxhoeveden (of the family established in Latvia since the 13th century, even though the Russian recognition of the baronial title for all family members only dates from 1861) can be considered as quite something else than being the descendant of a mere Napoleonic Baron Lefebvre.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 10:11:41 AM by Превед »
Березы севера мне милы,
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: Ивы и березы, 1843 / 1856)

Offline Превед

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Re: Questionable titles
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2014, 10:28:38 AM »
Really, there are few collections of names as emblematic as those found among the funnily termed Остзейские / Прибалтийские Бароны, Ostsee / Baltic barons: Stal von Holstein, Wrangel, Ungern von Sternberg, Yxkll von Gyllenband, Buxhwden, Armfeldt, Manteuffel etc. It's like the Normans of Eastern Europe.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 10:31:31 AM by Превед »
Березы севера мне милы,
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: Ивы и березы, 1843 / 1856)

Offline Превед

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Re: Questionable titles
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2014, 12:25:44 PM »
But a Russian baronial title is far from always "inferior" (in terms of antiquity) to a French baronial title, which usually dates from the First Empire

Fun fact in these Olympic times: The Barons de Coubertin were, although nobles since 1629, made barons by Napoleon, when a Coubertin was a high Napoleonic official in Oldenburg and thus perhaps part of the occupation with which "War and Peace" opens?
Березы севера мне милы,
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: Ивы и березы, 1843 / 1856)

Offline Превед

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Re: Questionable titles
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2014, 01:12:20 PM »
The Barons de Coubertin were, although nobles since 1629, made barons by Napoleon

Oops, make that Louis XVIII.
Березы севера мне милы,
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: Ивы и березы, 1843 / 1856)