Author Topic: Which servants went in captivity with the IF?  (Read 35663 times)

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Offline Annie

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Re: Which servants went in captivity with the IF?
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2006, 07:55:41 AM »
I think by the time of the execution most of their large entourage was gone. I thought most of them were sent away when they were moved to Ekaterinburg, especially those of non Russian blood, they didn't want foreign nationals involved. This is why Gilliard was sent away, and Gibbes, and Buxhoevedon, though she was Russian her name sounded Swedish. The kitchen boy was sent away the night before the murders. I think some of them were imprisoned before they were shot.

I am shocked, honestly stunned, at the amount of servants, and even worse, servants of servants! I had no idea Gilliard had servants, or some of the valets and ladies in waiting! My goodness this is sad, couldn't anyone do anything for themselves? It seems that having that amount of people around would be more trouble than it was worth! All those extra beds, more mouths to feed, and the sheer annoyance of having no privacy. I don't think I'd like that at all. It also shows the excesses they lived with, and how people became so resentful of their wealth.

I don't see Nagorny's name on the list. He was the most faithful of the Tsarevich's sailor nursemaids, and was shot for defending Alexei when a Bolshevik tried to take his rosary in Ekaterinburg so I know he was with them.

Oh, and I know that was a gaffe, Dr. Botkin of course died with the family. His children escaped.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Offline Sarushka

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Re: Which servants went in captivity with the IF?
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2006, 08:00:14 AM »
Quote
And who can post photos, of Buxhoeveden, Hendrikova, Schneider, Gibbes, Gilliard, Tegleva or others?
Gilliard at center; the older woman is Schneider, and I believe the younger is Hendrikova, but I'm not certain.


Catherine Schneider & Isa Buxhoeveden on the right, in front of the officers:


Isa Buxhoeveden at center:


Hendrikova & Schneider in exile:


Gilliard in the Crimea, 1913:


Gibbes:


There are more photos on this thread:
Any pics?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by sarahelizabethii »
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Offline griffh

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Re: Which servants went in captivity with the IF?
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2006, 03:10:10 PM »
I am shocked, honestly stunned, at the amount of servants, and even worse, servants of servants! I had no idea Gilliard had servants, or some of the valets and ladies in waiting! My goodness this is sad, couldn't anyone do anything for themselves?

Anne I believe that the trade off for the privacy and independence that we are so used to was intimacy, companionship and service offered by presence of servants for the courtiers.  To have someone attached to you who knew all of your habits and desires and was employed to make life comfortable in a way that was familiar to you, must have been a great blessing in Toblosk, during the stress and angziety and threats to their personal saftey of the courtiers who followed the Imperial family into exile experienced.  Valets served a similar purpose during the great war for many gentlemen who fought in that war. 

Having their trusted servants with them who were looking out for their well being, must have helped the Czar's courtiers to better concentrate on thier duties in looking out for the well being the the Emperor and his family. 

A member of my family was raised with five live-in servants and when the Great Depression hit, temporarily reducing the available funds of the family, it was those servants who stayed on in spite of the fact that they could not recieve wages, that kept the family afloat emotionally and helped to stablilze the family's shock and angziety and fear of the future.  It also kept the members of the family from being compromised in public, as a lady or gentleman who traveled without their servant was consider to have "given up."  Those loyal servants stablized the home situation which allowed a greater freedom for the head of the family to concentrate on the financial crisis and come up with a solution. 

The other thing was the practicality issue.  Clothes were still extremely complex as were undergarments and grooming in geneal was very rigorously aheard to so that valets and maids were essential for dressing and undressing.  One can well imagine that those courtiers wanted to look their best, especially in exile, so as to do their part in upholding the standard for the Imperial family and thus helping to normalize the family's life in exile as much as was humanly possible. 


Offline griffh

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Re: Which servants went in captivity with the IF?
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2006, 02:54:05 PM »
Annie, please forgive me if my former post sounded in any way offensive or abrupt. 

I am just so grateful that there was a staff to accompany the Court retainers as there were for the Imperial family.  That is so comforting to me.  The other thing I wanted to say is that the tudors and titled members of the court that accompanied the Imperial family, though they served the family, were not servants in the strickest sense of the word.  Holding a appointment as tudor, aide de camp, or lady in waiting to an Imperial court were highly esteemed positions,  No actual maid or valet is mentioned as having had their own servants.  In England just before the Great War Head butlers in the larger estates did actually have their own butlers but that was their office required the extra assistance because it depended on such highly developed management skills.  That both the English and French tudors had their own servants is no more unusual than college professors of the period having their own servants. 

Again with the conditions in Tobolsk it must have been an unspeakable blessing for thier maids and valets to be able to hunt down and find the neccessities required maintain a certain degree of refinement as I have already mentioned.  The other thing that was very useful was that the servants of these court retainers were much more able to find out what was going on in the town and gather helpful information whilst shopping, etc. 

When tragedy overtakes a family, often there is nothing that they can do but take each day at a time.  I don't think, other than the constant fatalism and fears that encompassed the family and its entourage, that anyone wanted to give up their hope.  I remember Count Beckendorf's concern that the house in Tobolsk be "chic" and how it was really not much larger than the kitchen out buidings at Tzarskoe Celo and how everyone had to stay aboard the Rus until the house could be raised to the standard of cleanliness that was fitting to the Imperial family. 

I am sure that the retinue found itself living one day at a time and responding as best they could to the logic of events as the Provisional Government gradually lost their hold on Russia and were themselves imprisoned by the Bolshevicki. 

Having just read a very heated discussion on one of the threads that involved the Russian Orthodox Church, I feel so sorry for everyone involved in Russia during the overthrow of the Provisional Government and the ensuing Civil War.  That level of suffering and agony to me has left no enemies, only noble Russians of great diversity.   

Dr. E.J. Dillion, a man who lived in Czarist Russia as a Journalist and Professor and friend of the late Count Witte and later a friend to the Soviets wrote a book in 1930, "Russia Today and Yesterday, An Impartial View of Soviet Russia," after he toured the country in 1929. 

His observations are interesting because he is trying to promote Lenin and still he his description of Russia while the Imperial family was still residing in Tobolsk, after the fall of the Provisional Government, is chilling:

"When the Provisional Government fell and President Kerensky fled, hell broke loose in Russia.  The whole social and political system...entered upon its death throes...Death in hideous forms, prompted by vengence and suspicion, stalked the land by day and night...Life was not worth a day's purchase..."

"The destruction of the young and middle aged...twice over...brought to a complete standstill everything that had been making for progress..."

"One never to be forgotten disaster with which the Bolshevists had to deal was the episode of the outcast children who roamed about the country...divided into large and small gangs, fleeing from towns, scattered over the country roads, halting at night along railway lines, sleeping in outhouses, in boilers that had not yet cooled down, in lime-kilns, in dust bins, feeding with cattle...addicted to morphium, cocaine, alcohol...Cynical, shameless, with no gleam of hope except through crime...society left them to perish."

"How many boys and girls drifted helplessly to their awful doom nobody will ever know.  The authorities affirm that more than seven million of them passed thus into the night.  Seven millions!"

I tell you that as mush as I am haunted by the assassination of the Imperial family, I am haunted by those seven million children,  I have heavily edited Dillion's description of those 6 to 12 year old hordes so that the more jarring descriptions of their short lives I omitted for obvious reasons. 

You know Annie, if you believe in the Life after Life research, and I know many people do not, there is a wonderful kind of consolation for the tragic death of those children and the Imperial family in the sense that the Imperial family was accompanied by all those youngsters to their new life.  I can't help thinking of that magnificent painting by Raphel where hundreds of baby faces adorn the background of one of his religious painting.  The title of the work of art escapes me.   



















 





 

 

Offline Annie

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Re: Which servants went in captivity with the IF?
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2006, 10:35:16 AM »
I still think the number of servants- and for goodness sakes servant of servants- was extreme. Imagine housing and feeding them all! You know, if they were that incapable of doing for themselves, the worst punishment they could have recieved would to have been left to live as ordinary folk!

Though I have always loved the IF and still do, in a way this helps me understand the resentment of the revolutionaries. When you have to work hard all your life and clean up for yourself and even *heaven forbid* change your own clothes, you must have a deeeep hatred for those who employ such a large number of people to keep their lives cushy. I know this was also a problem in the French revolution. Egads, I know people who make good money- six figures a year-and manage just fine with NO servants. Imagine that!

And this also raises the issue that since there were SO MANY of them who went with them for that long, it increases the number of people who could have told AA things about the family. As was mentioned, only about 5 of those several dozen were executed. The rest went on to tell the tale.

Offline dp5486

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Re: Which servants went in captivity with the IF?
« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2007, 08:27:34 PM »
I was curious, would the servants of the Imperial Family's suite also live in the Alexander Palace? If they did, maybe Maria Frullina and Ekaterina Nikolaeva were Mlle. Schneider's maids Masha and Katia?

Offline ashdean

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Re: Which servants went in captivity with the IF?
« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2007, 04:00:29 AM »
SENIOR Servants often did have servants of their own....in her autobiography the former Princess Sofka Doulgorouky writes how her paternal grandmother Princess Olga's (nee Countess Shouvalova & a great heiress)personal maid Louise had a maid and footman  of her own (no doubt to do the more mundane duties involved in waiting on the extremely spoiled Princess)...The Doulgoroukys left on the HMS Marlborough with the Dowager Empress..Louise in tow...When Princess Olga died in 1927 in Versaillies..Louise was still there...but then who else could have put on the Princess's stockings...

Offline dp5486

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Re: Which servants went in captivity with the IF?
« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2007, 03:00:54 PM »
Good to hear from you again. That is very interesting to know. Maybe the maid Ritkin was actually Louise's maid. I read that GD Xenia had to support her lady in waiting Mlle. Evreinova and her maid in exile as well as her own servants.

Offline Zinc Route

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Re: Which servants went in captivity with the IF?
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2008, 05:48:21 PM »
***** Hello I'm new as of TODAY here ;)

I had hoped to start a new thread inquiring about Pierre Gilliard who was Swiss I believe and after leaving Russia became basically the Administrator/Doorkeeper for all things Romonov for years until his death in the 1960's - Do I have this correct that he compiled most usable photo's and other memorabilia ??? including the famous pre Revomution large Photo album commissioned by the Tsar of the wholw realm . It was a coffee table book reissued about 15 years ago . about 700 plus photos.

BTW - This Forum format is rather ponderous & confusing. How do you start a new thread ??

Offline Lemur

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Re: Which servants went in captivity with the IF?
« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2009, 03:26:30 PM »
According to Colonel Kobylinsky, the following made the trip to Ekaterinburg:

Tatischev
Derevenko
Buxhoeveden
Hendrikova
Schneider
Gilliard
Gibbes
Tegleva
Ersberg
Toutelberg
Mejantz
Katia
Masha
Volkov
Nagorny
Ivanov
Tutin
Youravsky
Trupp
Haritonov
Kokichev
Leonid Sednev




Alixz

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Re: Which servants went in captivity with the IF?
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2010, 11:48:25 AM »
Imagine!  When one thinks of the family going into exile, one does not think of them taking small village with them!

This list of retainers who were allowed to go with the family makes me wonder just what Kerensky was planning for the future.

We know that only four retainers were left when the family was executed, but Kerensky was long out of power by then.

I do see Annie's point about the logistics and the cost of maintaining and feeding such a group.  It is no wonder that as the government changed hands, the group was made smaller and smaller.

I think I can see griffh's point of view as well, but never having had a servant of my own, I can't quite see how keeping up appearances would have helped a family to endure the "Great Depression".  But then there is a loyalty in this that we no longer see in our modern world.

I always remember the quote "Death before dishonor" when I think of the years gone by and how no one even thinks of dishonor as important anymore.  All anyone does now is figure out how to get around dishonor and use their disgrace to their own advantage.  Just look at all of the elected public officials whose scandals are brought to light but who never suffer for their disgraces.

Also look at the disgrace of Hollywood stars and heiresses and how they carry on without a backward glance.

Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Which servants went in captivity with the IF?
« Reply #26 on: December 24, 2011, 06:16:51 PM »
I know this seems strange to some people today but in the pre WW I worlld people had lots of servants. Even middle class families in US cities of the period who could not afford a horse could still afford 2 to 4 servants. it should be pointed out that families were on average larger 4 to 6 children. Also a lot of the labor saving devises we have today were not around back then. Washing clothes back then ment using a scrubboard. It from what I have read washday back then was a good part of the day no fun job for those who had to do it! Also note during WW I there was a big drop in household servants and a awful lot of middleclass women had to do their own washing for the first time. I think I read somewhere where OTMA were taught how to wash clothes in the house of special purpose. I don't know if they accutally had to do it though. It should also be pointed out Russia was a pretty backward and poor country so servants were easy to come by and cheap.

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Which servants went in captivity with the IF?
« Reply #27 on: December 25, 2011, 04:29:52 AM »
It was absolutely normal before 1918 for every family of the middle class and above to have servants. Even in the 1920s and 30s it was usual to have 'help in the house'. My maternal grandfather worked for the Inland Revenue and was comfortably off but certainly not rich. He and my grandmother had someone coming in every day who did the washing and cleaning, and someone else who helped out with the children (four of them, considered a large family at a time when the middle classes had just discovered contraception). My father grew up in a middle-class part of Liverpool at the same time, and remembers being most impressed that a neighbour who was a doctor not only had a car, but employed a driver!

My father subsequently became an officer in the Royal Air Force, and not only did he have the services of a batman when living in the mess, up to 1970 (I think) we had 'batting' in married quarters as well. This meant someone employed by the RAF who came in to clean. Even in the 1980s, when I went on a course at the Royal School of Artillery, Larkhill, and lived in the Officers' Mess, I had a share in a batman, who brought early morning tea, cleaned boots and kept your room tidy.

In that context, it is hardly surprising that the Imperial Family took a lot of servants to Ekaterinberg. But note that Prince Dolgoruky and General Tatischev managed with one servant between them.

Ann

Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Which servants went in captivity with the IF?
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2012, 07:09:14 PM »
It should also be pointed out Hereditary Nobleman V.I. Lenin when he was exiled to Siberia had someone to cook his meals and another to do his laundry. He also had a maid to help out his wife and her mother. This left Lenin plenty of time to do other things like hunt fish, corespond with other revolutionaries and write his book. No doubt it would have been really terrible for him to some real work during this period!

Alixz

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Re: Which servants went in captivity with the IF?
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2012, 10:37:35 AM »
I also know that in the US during this time, wealthy criminals were often coddled in prison and allowed their servants and allowed to "decorate" their cells with furnishings from home.

"Soft punishment" indeed.