Author Topic: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin  (Read 69469 times)

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Offline Laura Mabee

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Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2005, 09:20:01 AM »
That's.... interesting Wahoo. I only know the Gleb from a Romanov stand-point and not a "personal" stand point. Some of the information on Gleb that you offered sure puts him in a different light to me. Did he ever talk to you about AA? Or his memories of the Imperial Russia he was raised in? I would be quite interested to hear what he passed on.

Thank you Wahoo for the information. Maybe this thread should be under Servants, Friends and Retainers?

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Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2005, 09:21:01 AM »
Hi Wahoo  :)

Thank you for posting your memories of Gleb. His church sounds rather unusual.
Did he speak much about his Russian memories & have many recollections of the Imperial Family?

Offline Arleen

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Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2005, 09:46:16 AM »
Hi Wahoo, Welcome to our forum.  Did Gleb and Nadine have children and what became of them, if they did?  Did you see any of his animal drawings?  There are many questions that come to mind, but I would appreciate an answer to these.
..Arleen

Offline Wahoo

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Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2005, 10:20:49 AM »
Gee. That was quick.  Please excuse the amateurish formatting here- I'll simply cut and paste your names/questions, and my replies to them:

LAURA MABEE: "Did he ever talk to you about AA? Or his memories of the Imperial Russia he was raised in? I would be quite interested to hear what he passed on."

My answer:  Yes of course Gleb spoke of her often.  And she was often in his home when I'd go visit. She even attended a lecture Gleb gave once, at one of the historical societies at U. Va.  With her face wrapped tightly in a scarf, to avoid recognition. She was quite paranoid. But not nearly as paranoid as her (very new) husband Jack Manahan, who at a picnic with Gleb, refused to shake my hand because the "CIA" was out to poison him, and I might be an agent wearing a poison ring.  That was quite sad actually- to see how Jack's lunacy harmed that old woman. She finally was removed from their home, by the Albemarle welfare agency, and I believe placed in a home of some kind. But everyone who knew them, knew that Jack was batty as a bedbug.

So yes, Gleb talked at length about Anna Anderson (Or I guess Anna Manahan?). I really don't want to discuss the merits of the case, but I will say his faith in her never wavered one iota.  

Yeah, I guess it should be in that other forum you mention. Sorry.

BLUETORIA:  Well, I was 18 when I knew Gleb. So I really didn't know much about the royals. He mentioned his books - The Firebird, the Real Romanovs and so on. And he'd sometimes talk about the Tsar- whom he obviously idolized.  He spoke of Rasputin as being just as crazy as we all know he was.  And although he didn't dwell on it, he of course felt a deep disdain for the communists, and saw them as little more than thugs and murderers.  I guess our conversations had more to do with religion, than with Romaov history. Gleb was very devoted to "Anna Anderson"- I got the impression he was her last friend on earth. And he was absolutely loyal and devoted to her and her cause.

ARLEEN: Thank you for the welcome.  No, Nadine and Gleb had no children.  He did of course have children living in Alabama, but I think they were from a previous marriage. I'm remembering back a long time here, but my recollection is that he and Nadine married later in life. He very seldom spoke of his children, and I got the feeling they weren't on very good terms, and Gleb felt that they saw Pop as an embarrassment, due to the Aphrodite church thingie.  I also believe they owned the house he lived in, there in C'ville.

As to his drawings- I never saw any animal drawings. He did show me a portfolio of some mildly erotic sketches he'd done. Including one of a man in bed with a smile on his face.  Certainly tame by today's standards, but for the 1960s it was mildly risque I guess.

Actually one of my fondest memories of Gleb, is the dream he told me about, the year before he died. He said he'd dreamed he was in heaven, visiting his brother, who'd died years earlier.  That they'd chatted a good while, but that he'd finally had to say goodbye, and tell his brother "I'm sorry, but I'm only dreaming. And I have to wake up now."    I remembered that when they told me Gleb had died.  I hope he got to room with his brother.

I certainly don't claim to be an authority on Gleb, or even know very much about him really. But I did know him for a couple of years, back when I was 18 and stupid.   When you get to be older, you have a list of "the 5 people I'm really glad I met in my life."

For me, Gleb's near the top of that list.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Wahoo »

bluetoria

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Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2005, 10:28:02 AM »
Thanks a lot, Wahoo, for sharing your memories!  :)

Offline Wahoo

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Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2005, 10:41:37 AM »
Bluetoria- Well, it's a pleasure.

I should also mention, I guess-  Apparently the Soviets wanted to entice Gleb back to the USSR, as a propaganda coup.   To add legitimacy to their regime I guess.  The son of the great Dr. Botkin -which name apparently meant "dagger" in Scots, cf. Shakespeare's Hamlet: "When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? Who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life..."

Gleb said his family had come to the USSR from Scotland.

Hence the KBG visit to Gleb's house, was an effort to recruit/ entice the son of the great Dr. Botkin, back to his homeland.  It would have been quite a coup for them. But Gleb would have none of it.

I think Gleb was very saddened toward the end, that his Church of Aphrodite hadn't "taken off." He did manage to recruit one "priest"- one Andrew Hartsook, who when drafted into the army, applied to serve as a "chaplain," being a clergyman in a recognized established church.  The Army very politely said "No."  Andrew's still around- I've seen his comments on a web page devoted to AA.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Wahoo »

Offline Annushka

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Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2005, 11:22:25 AM »
I thought that Marina Botkin Schweitzer, who was involved in the court battle over AA's dna tests, was Glebs's daughter.  Does anyone know?

Holly
AKA HollyMI,  Princess of the ancient kingdom of Michigan, USA.

Offline lexi4

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Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2005, 02:17:46 PM »
First of welcome Wahoo.
Thank you for sharing your memories. I am enjoying reading them. Do you have any idea what convinced G. that AA was in fact An? Do you know how much contact he actually had with the IF while living in Russia.
How did he get to the United States?
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline Wahoo

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Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2005, 02:55:32 PM »
Thank you for the welcome, Lexi4.

I don't know how Gleb made it to the USA. He did speak (rather disdainfully) of an Orthodox priest, who refused to give up his seat in the very cramped boat, which would ferry their small party to freedom- I believe to Finland- I could  sense his bitterness as he recalled the priest's self-serving justification that "He had to survive, to carry on God's work." (I'm paraphrasing) But no, I don't know how he made it to the USA.

Nor do I know how much contact Gleb had with the royal family in Russia. Though I do know he played regularly with the children, especially Anastasia (see below).

His conviction that AA was indeed Anastasia was based on their having grown up together. He said she recalled things from their childhood, from their play,  that no one else could possibly know about.  Something along the lines of (say) a pet rabbit's nickname.  Or their favorite tree to climb.  Basically  Gleb said that she couldn't possibly NOT be Anastasia, and know all those things from their common shared childhood.  I mean, if you met someone you grew up playing with 50 years ago, the myriad shared memories between the two of you,  would be proof enough, that the other guy's who he says he is.  I confess I'm not "up to date" on all the evidence. But neither does it matter much to me. If you had known Gleb, as we knew him then, you would have believed him, simply because it was Gleb saying so. He was a very down-to-earth and level-headed fellow, in spite of the "Aphrodite"  thingie.

By the time I knew Gleb, from 1967-1969, his life revolved around the church he'd founded. My own interest in him wasn't the history- it was religion. He had a vast knowledge of religion in general, and enjoyed discussing it. I spent one whole summer (the summer of 1967) in his house, typing out a copy of his "Liturgy" for the church. He absolutely wouldn't take it out of his house- for fear of losing it. So I spent that entire summer copying it out, on his old typewriter.  I'd love to know what happened to his Liturgy, and the copy I made of it.

Anyway, I certainly don't know the "evidence" against Anna Anderson/Manahan. But I do know that Gleb wasn't the nefarious schemer I've seen him made out to be, here and there on the Net. He was a very kind and gentle old guy, who charmed everyone who met him.  

ADDENDUM:  I do recall one very funny story Gleb told me, from his appearance before an immigration judge. About an Italian fellow and his application for US citizenship.  It's one of my favorite stories, and I'll try to Post it in the next day or so.

Also- I have a picture of Gleb's small house in Charlottesville, which I took 2 years ago on a trip there. It's still standing, still in good shape, in fact has been renovated apparently. Is there some way to post pictures, from our computers? Or do they have to be on the Net to post here?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Wahoo »

Offline Lanie

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Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2005, 03:26:42 PM »
Quote
His conviction that AA was indeed Anastasia was based on their having grown up together. He said she recalled things from their childhood, from their play,  that no one else could possibly know about.  Something along the lines of (say) a pet rabbit's nickname.  Or their favorite tree to climb.  Basically  Gleb said that she couldn't possibly NOT be Anastasia, and know all those things from their common shared childhood.  I mean, if you met someone you grew up playing with 50 years ago, the myriad shared memories between the two of you,  would be proof enough, that the other guy's who he says he is.  I confess I'm not "up to date" on all the evidence. But neither does it matter much to me. If you had known Gleb, as we knew him then, you would have believed him, simply because it was Gleb saying so. He was a very down-to-earth and level-headed fellow, in spite of the "Aphrodite"  thingie.


Gleb did not really have much contact with the IF as he says he did.  It seems like back when everyone was writing their books, it was Romanovmania--EVERYONE wanted to say, "Oh yes, I played with the Imperial Children!" or "I met the Emperor!" etc when they really didn't.

Thanks however for telling us all about him; I've wanted to know more about the fellow.  :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Lanie »

Offline Wahoo

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Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2005, 03:32:29 PM »
Hi Lanie-

Well, what you say is certainly true.  Likewise,  maybe I didn't have as much contact with Gleb as I say I did.  We can never know anything with absolute certainty of course.  But within the parameters of my own particular story, I found Gleb to be very believable. Of course, I was 18 at the time. And when I was 18 I also found several girls "very believable" when they swore they'd love me "forever."

Who knows.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Wahoo »

Val289

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Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2005, 04:07:11 PM »
Quote
I thought that Marina Botkin Schweitzer, who was involved in the court battle over AA's dna tests, was Glebs's daughter.  Does anyone know?

Holly



Yes, Holly - I believe that you're right.   I was always under the impression that  Marina Botkin Schweitzer was Gleb (and Nadine's ?) daughter.   I suppose it's very possible that Gleb was married earlier, and that his Marina is from his first marriage, although I don't recall ever hearing that.  I do have Gleb's book "The Woman Who Rose Again" at home, perhaps I can find some further information.  I think Penny Wilson and/or Greg King would probably know some more information, but don't know how active they are in posting anymore........  Thank you, Wahoo for sharing your information with us :)

-Val

Offline lexi4

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Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2005, 06:04:32 PM »
Thank you Wahoo for sharing. I enjoy reading the posts. FYI, DNA testing has now proven that AA was not AN. There is a lot of information about that posted on other threads.
That being said, I am still very interested in hearing his recollections. You are fortunate that you knew him. I think we are close in age and I can tell you at 18 I probably wouldn't have cared about the history either. It was a different time.
Is his wife still alive?
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline etonexile

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Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2005, 06:24:23 PM »

Gleb Botkin founded a religion based on an ancient goddess?...And people are throwing stones at Jack Manahan and FS,AA,AM.... ::)

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2005, 07:08:07 PM »
Marina Botkin Schweitzer is indeed Gleb Yevgenivich's daughter by an earlier marriage. I don't recall how many times he was married, but at least twice.