Author Topic: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin  (Read 70831 times)

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Offline etonexile

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Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2005, 07:14:27 PM »
Was anyone else in the "Church" besides Gleb?

Offline Merrique

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Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2005, 08:02:13 PM »
Quote
It's just amazing to me today, to see how the Wiccans have tried to coopt Gleb as one of their own.  There was never the slightest hint of eroticism in Gleb's church (though he maintained that sexuality was a natural expression of love, and found great fault in what he saw as Christianity's disdain for it.)   But for Gleb it was never about sex- it was all about theology.


Actually it would be correct to link Gleb with the Wiccan/Pagan religion since the church he founded was based on Wiccan/Pagan beliefs.Also wicca/paganism isn't a sex based religion,it's a nature based religion.
Sex has nothing to do with it.Not to sound rude or anything but you really should read more about wicca/paganism before you jump to conclusions and say incorrect things about it.

Anyway,it is interesting to hear about your memories of Gleb.
Don't knock on Death's door....ring the doorbell and run.He hates that.:D

Offline Wahoo

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Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2005, 01:48:57 AM »
Thanks to all who replied to my comments. And for your kind words of welcome.

Lexi4--  No, Nadine isn't still alive. She died many years ago- before Gleb I believe. But she's definitely no longer among the living. At least not here.

"FYI, DNA testing has now proven that AA was not AN."

Yes, I've heard that said.

Etonexile- I don't think it's "throwing stones" at Jack, to say that he was crazy. It's simply the truth.  If you'd known him, you'd have said he was crazy too. To paraphrase Forrest Gump, "Crazy is as crazy does." And Jack Manahan did lots of "crazy".   I've already mentioned how he refused to shake my hand, because I might be CIA, trying to kill him with my poison ring.   He'd do things like appear in tennis shoes at a formal dinner, because the rubber soles would protect him, in case the CIA ran a half million volts of electricity through the floor, to kill Jack. No, make no mistake about it- Jack Manahan was a loon.  But he had money, and came from a good family. So he wasn't considered "crazy" but just "eccentric."

Yes, Gleb did worship "The Goddess," but that didn't drive him to do crazy things- like live among filth and squalor as Jack did.  It didn't drive him to paranoia and fear the CIA was trying to kill him.  It didn't drive him to abuse his wife. Gleb's house was always tidy and neat. As was his person. He was well dressed, clean and groomed.  He cared for Nadine like a precious China doll. Jack Manahan (with all his money)  lived in sheer squalor, and treated Anna Anderson like a dog. Not out of malice, but simply because he was nuts.  It was so odd- seeing that stately old home in C'ville (in a very prime location I might add)  reduced to a garbage-strewn eyesore.   As though eight-year-old boys had turned the White House into their own private "clubhouse." The weed-choked lawn, littered with garbage,  filth all throughout the house, and little or no heat in winter. Her last years were lived in such filth (I saw it)  that finally social services removed her from the home. (Jack married her for her body- he'd orginally written Anna in Germany, asking her to ship her body to him after she died, so he could erect a monument to her in the USA. She wrote back, saying essentially "No, but why not take me now?")

Jack Manahan was disconnected from objective reality. I'm not "throwing stones" at him by reporting this. I'm just saying he was crazy. Everybody who knew him said the same thing. Because it was quite obvious that he was nuts. And Gleb wasn't.  Sure, Gleb worshipped Aphrodite. But  I'm not sure that's any "crazier" than (say) Mormons baptizing dead people.  Like Anne Frank and Adolph Hitler.  And worshipping Aphrodite is  probably no "crazier" than drinking blood that tastes like wine.  Or believing that an old guy named Bahá'u'lláh was Jesus, Buddha,  Mohammed and Quetzalcoatl to boot. Or killing a chicken after waving it over your head,  and tossing bread crumbs into the water, to get rid of your sins. A "crazy" religion is simply one we don't believe in. The only difference between Gleb's Aphrodite religion, and (say) the Lutheran or Mormon Church, is that Gleb's never "took off".   If we'd all worked a little harder back then, folks might well be watching "Goddess Love" on TV now, instead of the "Hour of Power".  At least Gleb never asked any of us for one penny of our money.  Can't say that about many other religions that I know of.  He never tried to sell us anything- no books or tapes. He did give me a copy (inscribed) of his "In Search of Reality," which I've treasured for many years.  That's very unusual actually- someone starting a new religion, and never asking for one cent of money, from potential followers.  He could very easily have turned a tidy sum from us. But he never asked for a penny.  U Go Gleb.

We were always welcome to drop by, but Gleb was completely undemanding. He never tried to get anything from us, and never tried to get us to do anything. I guess I mention this, in case this smacks of a "cult"- because it certainly wasn't that. Cults seek first and foremost, to alter your behavior. And Gleb never once tried to do that. It was more like dropping by for a chat.  My sister, who met Gleb in 1968, when she was 11 years old, still remembers him as a smiling old man who said something kind to a little girl.

LisaDavidson-  Again, I was 18 and stupid when I knew Gleb, but my memory is that Nadine and Gleb had no children together, that they'd married much later in their lives, after Gleb's kiddies had flown the coop.

Etonexile-  No need for quotes around "church." Gleb's was a licensed and chartered church (by the state of NY). Just as much as the RC or Southern Baptist Churches are.  There was a small group of people who attended Gleb's services- but no real membership roster. It was all very informal.  Gleb even performed one marriage that I know of. (The head of Slavic Languages at Alderman Library, U.Va.)  Hey, don't knock it- at the age of 18, I thought it was GREAT, worshipping a naked woman!  (I've worshipped quite a few others since then, and not one of them treated me half as well as the Goddess did.) I guess there were maybe 10 or so of us U. Va. students who dropped in from time to time. A few for the history lessons, but most just because Gleb was so darn interesting and we really liked him.

Merrique- Sorry if I offended you. I think I kind of knew that, but hey- men say stupid things sometimes, right?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Wahoo »

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
« Reply #33 on: May 04, 2005, 09:35:04 AM »
Wahoo, I've enjoyed your knowledge about Gleb, your wit and your frankness.

When was the last time you saw Gleb?

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Offline etonexile

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Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
« Reply #34 on: May 04, 2005, 10:02:45 AM »
Isn't there a standard for a new church or religion...12 members or such?...I don't know if this is a national standard for tax purposes...

My mad or eccentric friends are alles the most interesting.... :)

Offline Wahoo

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Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
« Reply #35 on: May 04, 2005, 10:25:24 AM »
AGRBear--   Thanks for the kind remarks. I guess the last time I saw Gleb was maybe 6 or 8 months prior to his death. I  hadn't been around that much. I did drive by his house a couple years ago, and took some pictures. It's been refurbished with vinyl siding.  He was very proud of the lightning rods he'd had installed on it.  Gleb never had a TV. But the first touchtone phone I ever saw, was in Gleb's house.

Etonexile-- Whatever the standard is now, Gleb met the standards in NY state when he chartered The Church of Aphrodite back in the 1930s.  That's what I liked about Gleb- he started OUT right at the top- as an Archbishop.  I had a chance to be a "hierophant"- but I said no- mostly because I didn't think that would impress women. I mean, who on earth even knows what a "hierophant" is?

Gleb  personally argued the case before the NY State Supreme Court.  I loved the judge's comment, that "Well, I guess it's better than worshipping Mary Baker Eddy."

As to "mad and eccentric friends"- I think that's the #1 qualification we require in a friend- to be interesting. No matter what other good qualities someone has, if (s)he's boring as powdered milk, it's not a very rewarding friendship.  And whatever else Gleb was, he was indeed interesting.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Wahoo »

Offline lexi4

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Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2005, 04:15:27 PM »
Wahoo,
I love your posts. I enjoy your honesty. Keep posting. Actually, the worship of a female diety is not unique as I am sure you know. In some ways, I think he might have enjoyed more success with his church in this day and age. I personally think goddess worshiping took a nose dive after the Council of Nicea, but that is another topic that is probably not appropriate here. If you are interested in that comment send me a pm.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline etonexile

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Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
« Reply #37 on: May 04, 2005, 05:18:00 PM »
Ok....what sorts of festivals can we expext from the goddess worshipers?...treats?....we need many treats....yes....!!! ;D

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Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
« Reply #38 on: May 04, 2005, 05:41:28 PM »
Quote

 I had a chance to be a "hierophant"- but I said no- mostly because I didn't think that would impress women. I mean, who on earth even knows what a "hierophant" is?

 


Upon such things we build our lives!!  ;D ;D


Quote

As to "mad and eccentric friends"- I think that's the #1 qualification we require in a friend- to be interesting. No matter what other good qualities someone has, if (s)he's boring as powdered milk, it's not a very rewarding friendship.  And whatever else Gleb was, he was indeed interesting.


Wahoo....your posts are fascinating!!  ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by bluetoria »

Offline lexi4

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Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
« Reply #39 on: May 04, 2005, 08:10:57 PM »
Wahoo,
Do you have anything left that was written about the church? Did he talk much about his fahter? Please keep the stories coming.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline Laura Mabee

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Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
« Reply #40 on: May 05, 2005, 11:47:06 AM »
Wow.. you're not online for a day and the boards BOOM with posts!

Thanks for answering my questions and more Wahoo! This thread has certinally be an interesting read. I agree that Jack M. was quite the nut, I remeber seeing a show with him and Anna, and he seemed quite.. special.

I understand you were making a point with the comment:
Quote
Or killing a chicken after waving it over your head,  and tossing bread crumbs into the water, to get rid of your sins.

But if you could please refrain from talking about Animal Cruelty, it would be great. As the subject brings great anger to me. I am a huge animal rights activist.
Cheers  :)

Offline Wahoo

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Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
« Reply #41 on: May 05, 2005, 01:26:41 PM »
Hello to all.  I'm glad you find my Posts "Not horrible."

Hi Laura:  I'm likewise very opposed to animal cruelty (though not enough to capitalize it, as you did).  But I don't consider killing a chicken to be that. I'm sorry if I offended you. But as the Romans said, "De gustibus non est disputandum."  I guess everybody's opposed to something. But I certainly didn't intend offense, and I admire your concern for animal rights. Abraham Lincoln said this about animals: "I have no respect for any man's religion, if it doesn't get better treatment for his dog."   My rabbi is a vegetarian, and I always tell him, "There's room for all God's creatures on this earth-- right beside the mashed potatoes on my plate."

My daughter's also a vegetarian. Just the thought of life without NY Strips and Porterhouse (notice I did capitalize those), makes me break out in a cold sweat.

I know this is off topic. So what? My wife won't be home for 2 hours, and I'm bored. So I might as well bore you too.  

If you're a vegetarian, consider this:  Folks like PETA would have us believe that our choices are as follows:

a) Kill and eat animals, or b) "Let animals be animals"- let them live out their lives in peace and happiness.

But I submit:  Those aren't the choices at all.  The choices are actually as follows:  a) Kill and eat animals, or b) Don't kill animals, in which case (there being no predators), they'll die instead of things like cancer, infection, pneumonia, heart conditions, etc. etc. The same diseases, more or less, that kill you and me. But (and here's what matters), unlike you and me, cows and chickens will have slow and painful deaths. Since they won't get medical treatment for their illnesses.  

Ergo, I submit that it's much more humane to kill and eat them. Heck, I know what I'd choose, if I were a chicken.

Unless we're prepared to start funding MRIs and CT scans and hospitals for cows and chickens, their ailments would go untreated.

I'm also very opposed to animal cruelty. That's why I eat animals.

Still friends?

:)

Lexi4:  Here's what I have left from the Church of Aphrodite:  Doodley Squat. Except that book "In Search of Reality" Gleb wrote, and I'm not even sure I have that.  Gleb hardly ever spoke of his father. I didn't get the feeling they were close.  His primary emotional attachment was to Nadine, whom he obviously cherished. She was a very frail thin woman. "Wispy" even.

Well, as to "stories"- I do have a couple more. My wife and I leave Saturday for 3 weeks, on a trip to the States. When I get back around the end of May, I'll see about posting more stories.

Till then, and in case I don't get back before Saturday,  Thanks to everyone for the kind welcome.  And if I never get back- enjoy the rest of your lives.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Wahoo »

Offline Laura Mabee

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Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
« Reply #42 on: May 05, 2005, 01:52:33 PM »
Wahoo,
I definatly won't get into too deep of a animals rights protest right here, because I can go on for days on end. However, there are points in your post that are so incorrect in nature, I would just like to show you my side of the arguement.

First off, you say:
Quote
they'll die instead of things like cancer, infection, etc. etc.

Animals did not start to get cancer until we put them in scientific testing, where animals were injected with human disease. Did you know that most killer human diseases came from eating animals (an example would be Ebola). But since we are just going to touch upon the cruelty which is eating animals, I shall try and stick with that. I may not be as strong in my beliefs as some PETA members, however, I do believe my opinions in this matter are strong. If you really truly think eating animals is cruelty free, then indulge me and check out these sites:
FactoryFarming.com and for a less serious look, on a serious topic check out The Meatrix
You know, if farms were as the might have been decades ago, I might eat meat. But I highly doubt it, as I think it is cruel in any way or form of slaughter. I'll stick to being Vegan overall.
I also encourage you to check out this as it will show you that killing a chicken is indeed animal cruelty. Heck if you were a chicken, read this and tell me that treatment like that is ideal.

Now that we have had a chance to argue both our points in the open, I ask that if you want to carry on the arguement, please PM/IM me.

Offline Wahoo

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Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
« Reply #43 on: May 05, 2005, 02:17:51 PM »
Laura-  


"Animals did not start to get cancer until we put them in scientific testing, where animals were injected with human disease."

Cows (and all other animals) have been dying natural deaths for millennia. So whether it's cancer or whatever other disease, something must kill them. All I'm saying is, that "something" (which can be quite painful and prolonged) is much more horrific than a quick death in the abattoir.  Animals not killed for meat, will die natural deaths.  And I just believe a 5-second death is much kinder than a 5-week/5-month death from some slow and painful disease. I do agree, however, that needless experimentation should be outlawed.  

I hate the idea of an animal suffering. That's why I eat them. I don't want to even think of some poor cow lying in the pasture, suffering needlessly for days and days.  Especially when she would have looked SO good on my plate.

"If you really truly think eating animals is cruelty free, then indulge me and check out these sites"

And if you really think a cow dying a natural death is cruelty free, go out to a farm and watch one die of bovine tuberculosis.  Or whatever other disease kills cows in the pasture.  Unless you're arguing that cows will never die, it follows that they'll die from some disease.  I'm simply saying that dying from that disease, will entail much more suffering for the cow, than dying in an abbatoir.  One's quick, one's drawn out. Quick deaths are better than drawn-out deaths.

I do agree we should do all we can, to make sure animals die quick and painless deaths in abbatoirs. There'll always be some suffering involved with eating meat, but not nearly as much as the animals would undergo if left to die of natural causes, of diseases largely undiagnosed and untreated.

I respect your vegetarianism. My daughter's a vegetarian.  But ask yourself: If we don't kill the chicken, what will it die of? 'Cause it sure won't live forever.  The chicken you don't eat tonight for dinner, what disease would you choose for it to die of? I guess I'd choose "dying in its sleep." But unfortunately, that won't happen.  And the chicken we don't eat today, will suffer tomorrow for our "kindness".

As to the grisly web sites you've posted- I could just as well post pictures of cows lying for days in the pasture-  in the final agonizing stages of natural death from bovine tuberculosis, or whatever other disease kills them. Pretty grisly sight.  Natural death for animals can be long and painful. Sensationalism isn't much of an argument.

Gotta scoot- steaks are thawed out, and ready for the grill.

Thanks for talking.  I hope you enjoy your Tofu burger tonight, as much as I will this prime Porterhouse.

Laura, would you at least just look at this Page I'm posting below? And think with your stomach, not your heart. Joinnnnnnnn us!



« Last Edit: January 24, 2013, 05:15:15 AM by Svetabel »

Offline lexi4

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Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
« Reply #44 on: May 05, 2005, 07:37:28 PM »
Wahoo,
I will miss your posts. Hurry back.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"