Author Topic: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1  (Read 207947 times)

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Offline Martyn

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Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2004, 11:26:01 AM »
That Miechen thought that Nicholas and Alexandra would entertain the idea of marrying Olga to Boris demonstrates just how her mind worked.  To her way of thinking, this would really put the Vladimirovichi back on the dynastic map; never mind the fact that he was a rake on an imperial scale and she was an innocent sheltered girl.  I know that dynastic alliances were still being conducted through marriages at this time but that suggestion must have given Alix a few sleepless nights.  It would seem that Olga also rejected Carol of Roumania; he may have seemed like a good idea at the time amd Missy probably would have been a sympathetic mother-in-law but with hindsight she would probably have been just as unhappy as his wife as Helen of Greece was.
Incidentally, there are two great photos of Elena's husband Nicholas in 1900 on the Pole Star on p.152 of "The Romanovs love power and tragedy".
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Offline Annie

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Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2004, 08:43:41 PM »
Gosh, wasn't Boris almost 20 years older than Olga N?  :o Whose bright idea was that? :-/

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2004, 11:29:59 PM »
Mom's. His. Charming, no?

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2004, 12:16:41 AM »
Quote
Mom's. His. Charming, no?


No!  ;)  We've read of Alexandra's horrified reaction but I would've loved to have been a fly on the wall to actually see/hear it when she got THAT little suggestion.
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Offline Martyn

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Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2004, 06:04:13 AM »
Boris, Carol of Roumania, the poor girl seem to have been besieged by unsuitable suitors!
I think that you've got to hand it to Miechen, she really had some amazing ideas.  How she imagined that Alix would even contemplate that staggering piece of effrontery escapes me!
Of course Miechen's ideas about marriage are well known and very different to Nicky and Alix's.
I have read that the marriage of Tatiana Konstantinovna was rather regarded as an opportunity to pave the way for a change in the attitudes regarding marriages in the IF; this specifically would have affected the marriage prospects of OTMA and this was why Nicky agreed to Tatiana's choice of husband (Pce Bagration Moukhransky I believe, who was effectively a commoner)  Nicky and Alix hoped that the girls would marry for love (as they had done) and that some of them might choose to remain in Russia.
I love Miechen - I think that she inspired strong feelings in people.  Some loved her, some hated her but most agree that she knew how to be a Grand Duchess!
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Offline Jackswife

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Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2004, 08:17:09 AM »
 Miechen was *definitely* outspoken, opinionated, and strong-willed, but she also had a lot of glamour and charisma that both Alix and Nicky lacked. She never lost an opportunity to express her hostility toward the Imperial couple, and Alix especially was a target of her wrath. I often in my mind think she was a throwback to Catherine the Great, and if she had been Empress, how differently things would have been in Russia. Other than the immediate family, she and Minnie are my two favorites of all.

Offline Annie

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Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2004, 08:20:48 AM »
Oh, a pushy Mama ::) I don't think N & A would have agreed to it anyway, even if Olga was interested, which I'm sure she wasn't! Boris was born in 1877,  so that's an 18 year age difference, I can't believe anyone even had the audacity to suggest it. Poor Olga.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Offline Martyn

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Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2004, 01:04:41 PM »
The Vladimirs were a fascinating couple and i think that their marriage did work, alsmost in spite of their personalities.
I love the tale about the fight breaking out because Miechen decided to pay Vladimir back by kissing someone else - didn't they get temporarily banished for that little episode?
One really regrets that now there aren't really people who are cast from the mould that formed GDss Vladimir and I am not overly enamoured of her current descendants.
Many peole have said that Miechen would have made a fine Empress - who knows?
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Offline jackie3

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Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2004, 03:47:35 PM »
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The main thing against Maria is that she is a woman! If Kyril denied the rights of other women who were more closely related than he, such as Xenia, then how can we expect to just stick a woman in now that it's convenient to the line?


True. As I've said in another thread, I wonder if Kyril would have the nerve to make his "claims" (legitimate or not) had Olga N. actually married Carol of Romania and thus been spared the murders of her family. Particularly after his behavior which Antonio mentioned. Something tells me he would have.

Which brings me back to the question, why exactly would Miechen want Boris to marry Olga? What was the gain for the Vladmirovitchi (especially considering the mutual dislike between the N&A and them)?


Offline grandduchessella

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Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2004, 04:08:51 PM »
Quote

True. As I've said in another thread, I wonder if Kyril would have the nerve to make his "claims" (legitimate or not) had Olga N. actually married Carol of Romania and thus been spared the murders of her family. Particularly after his behavior which Antonio mentioned. Something tells me he would have.

Which brings me back to the question, why exactly would Miechen want Boris to marry Olga? What was the gain for the Vladmirovitchi (especially considering the mutual dislike between the N&A and them)?



Perhaps she saw the writing on the wall (this all assuming no one foresaw what lay ahead for the Romanovs). If Alexei died and with Michael's unsuitable marriage and if she felt people wouldn't accept Kyril's claim, she may have wanted to hedge her bets. If Kyril was accepted fine; but if he wasn't then Boris was next in line. Since he wasn't the most popular person and maybe people would've asked for the repeal of the Pauline law which would put Olga in line then you could kill 2 birds with one stone. Either Boris would be Tsar with the intelligent and lovely Olga, eldest daughter of NII, as his consort OR Olga would reign with Boris at her side. Either way Miechen would've seen as son on the throne and herself as almost a Dowager Empress (Empress Mother?). Plus, they were amongst the loveliest of European princesses and Boris could've done a lot worse (though Olga could've done a LOT better--even with Carol II of Romania!).
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Offline Eurohistory

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Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2004, 08:54:54 PM »
If Olga Nikolaievna had survived her father, the inheritance of the Imperial throne would still not have gone to her.

Certainly Kiril jumped ship when the boat was sinking, but why does not anyone care to sanction Nicholas II for his inept stewardship of the Romanov throne?  Does the fact that he was brutally assassinated exempt him from his complete disregard for the historical legacy place don his shoulders?  By sailing the ship of state into the rocks, does Nicholas II not deserve full responsibility, for after all his inability to rule destroyed not only his own son's legacy, but those of his entire family.  When a ship's captain leads his charge to ruin, are the rest of the officers under his command and his own sailors thus condemned to ignominy and inaction?

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Offline jackie3

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Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2004, 09:32:19 PM »
Quote
If Olga Nikolaievna had survived her father, the inheritance of the Imperial throne would still not have gone to her.


Certainly not but I have no doubt that emigre monarchists would look to her rather than Kyril even if he was the pretender.

And yes Nicholas does bear a huge responsibility but Kyril forsook his pledged oaths to the Tsar and deserted his post, leaving the Empress and her young children alone to be victims of possible violence. Nicholas may have been responsible for much of what happened but Kyril's actions were not courageous or anything to be proud of. Many lower-class servants (like those who died in the cellar with the IF)  gave their lives for Nicholas, refusing to abandon him to the very end. Meanwhile his own cousin, a Grand Duke of Russia, 3rd in line to the throne jumped like a rat off a sinking ship, at the head of his troops, flying the red flag.

Of course that's just my opinion. We can agree to disagree on the matter.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by jackie3 »

Offline Eurohistory

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Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2004, 11:46:12 PM »
Had Olga survived, married to a foreign prince who stood to inherit his country's throne, it would have been nearly impossible, for her to take up the Russian claims, particularly being a female preceded in the line of succession bny at least 15 other eligible male dynasts, and yes Kiril primus among them, among them some very popular Grand Dukes.

You see, and yes we can agree to disagree on this, inheriting the throne does not have anything to do with who you like or dislike for whatever reasons.  Kiril followed immediately after Michael who followed immediately after Alexei, whose own rights were violated by none other than Nicholas II, his own father, who had no legal right to renounce in his own son's name.

Le roi est mort, vive le roi...once the Tsar is dead (or in this case abdicated) the next Tsar is his immediate heir, in the case of Nicholas, that being none other than Alexis.  What right did Nicholas have to renounce in his own son's stead?  Without the authority of a crown council even!  Have you thought about the fact that perhaps if Alexis was allowed to succeed to the throne by his less than competent father (God rest his soul) the entire fiasco may have been avoided?  Instead, Nicholas is exempt from blame, his wife as well, and those who sought to protect themselves and their own families in his debacle are condemned?  I honestly, and respectfully really, fail to see the logic in this.

When the other members of the Imperial family tried to get Nicholas to see reason, he rebuked his own family...attempt after attempt failed, while in the meantime to ship of state sailed rudderless, a captain at the helm who, honestly, had no idea of East or West, much like a country I live in these days..but that is another story.

The fact of the mater is that Nicholas failed as a ruler, politician and military leader, a statesman the poor man was not...a father of great note and dedication I can see he was, a stronger husband he should have been...but he was not the victim of Kiril, but the victim of his own shortcomings.  That is Nicholas' fault, not Kiril's.

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Offline grandduchessella

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Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2004, 12:50:53 AM »
Well, there's a whole section on this newsgroup devoted to just this argument so I guess there are some people who don't believe in Kyril's claim or at least think it should've passed from Vladimir to the next MALE Romanov. If Olga, etc... would've been banned, then IMO so should MV. But if any restoration would've happened back then, couldn't an entirely new manifesto been drawn up governing the succession? Anyhow, a moot point and off topic. Back to Boris and what a horrible suitor he would've been. I think he was probably as happy to escape marrying Olga and she was (ok, maybe not AS happy). He seemed to totally enjoy the playboy lifestyle and if he'd married Olga he not only would've had Miechen trying to make him clean up his act and be more presentable, he would've had to deal with N&A. There wouldn't have been any gallivanting around Paris with your mistresses then! I mean, Misha was put under the watch of the Imperial police for fear he'd run off and elope with his first non-suitable mistress. I can only imagine Boris would've been under lock & key!  :)
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Offline Martyn

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Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2004, 07:14:41 AM »
I don't suppose that Boris' views are a matter of record; mind you I shouldn't have thought that they were even an issue as far as Miechen was concerned.  Once she had made her mind up to bring about the marriage, she probably considered it as good as done!
Robert Massie in "The last Courts Of Europe" mentions that Miechen considered herself to be a bit of a matchmaker; this surely must have been her most "creative" coupling!
As to Kirill, his claims, Maria Vladimirovna's claims, her son's claims (yawn) well as Bookworm quite correctly said in the other thread on MV, "pigs, skating, the hot place"..............need I say more?
'For a galant spirit there can never be defeat'....Wallis Windsor

'The important things is not what they think of me, but what I think of them.'......QV