Author Topic: Lopukhin-Demidov  (Read 29841 times)

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Offline rpalmgre

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Lopukhin-Demidov
« on: April 13, 2015, 08:25:56 AM »
The Russian Princely family Lopukhin-Demidov of the House of Demidov still exist today. I do not understand why Grand Duchess MARIA of Russia has marked this family extinct here: http://geroldia.ru/?lang=rus&id=22. His Serene Highness The 4th Prince Lopukhin-Demidov is Onni Demidoff. He is a Finn born in Helsinki 23 April 1936 and still live here in Helsinki and Finland.

Offline rpalmgre

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Re: Lopukhin-Demidov
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2015, 03:27:29 PM »
I can't seem to find a picture of His Serene Highness The 4th Prince Lopukhin-Demidov anywhere! :( Does anyone here have a picture of him or know where I could find one? You can also send it to me on a Personal Message. I am distantly related to him.

Thank you so much!

Offline rpalmgre

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Re: Lopukhin-Demidov
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2015, 06:01:21 AM »
Does anyone here know anything about this family?

Offline Превед

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Re: Lopukhin-Demidov
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2015, 04:40:22 PM »
Does anyone here know anything about this family?

Interesting how this family seems to have been caught up in the current Russian succession quarrel:

The Russian Princely family Lopukhin-Demidov of the House of Demidov still exist today. I do not understand why Grand Duchess MARIA of Russia has marked this family extinct here: http://geroldia.ru/?lang=rus&id=22. His Serene Highness The 4th Prince Lopukhin-Demidov is Onni Demidoff. He is a Finn born in Helsinki 23 April 1936 and still live here in Helsinki and Finland.

I suppose you have seen this genealogy?
http://heirsofeurope.blogspot.no/2010/05/lopoukhine-demidov.html

Apparantly the Court of Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna may seem to want "forget" that there is a current Prince Lopukhin-Demidov. The entry "утверждённая старшая ветвь" - stated? / claimed? / approved? elder branch - seems cryptic.

The Princes Lopukhin are listed as extant, although there never were any standard Princes Lopukhin before the elevation of one line to Most Serene Princes. They were just boyars / nobles and other lines continued to flourish as such, also after the extinction of the agnatic Serene Princes. One of them remained in Russia after the Revolution: Oleg Mikhailovich Lopukhin (1924 - 1993) was a Captain in the Soviet Navy and Head of Arkhangelsk Naval College untill 1985. From 1992 he was a Full member of the Russian Nobility Assembly. His son, "Prince" Vadim Olegovich, with a background in Soviet medicine, is apparantly a leading member of the Russian Nobility Association since 1990 and a close collaborator of Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna, acting as "Chief Coordinator of the All-Highest Visits to Russia". Here are pages with some background information on him: http://www.persona.rin.ru/eng/view/f/0/21248/lopukhin-vadim-o and http://www.imperialhouse.ru/eng/allnews/news/2005/686.html

Since this line of the Lopukhins never was princely, it must have been GD MV who has granted him the title he sports and is credited with in various press releases connected to GD MV. Was her reasoning perhaps that since the Princes Demidov of San Donato are extinct in the male line since 1943, the Demidovs in Finland can now revert to being merely Princes Demidov? And that remaining untitled Lopukhins can be raised to the princely rank?

The Russian Wikipedia article on the Lopukhins lists a coat of arms for "the Princes Lopukhin" wich differs from the arms of the "Most Serene Princes Lopukhin" insofar as the monogram on the augmentation in the form of the imperial eagle is that of "Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna" instead of "Paul I's" original one! This was published in 1996 in a nobiliary issued by GD MV's Master of Heraldry Dumin.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2015, 04:55:18 PM by Превед »
Березы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и березы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline Превед

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Re: Lopukhin-Demidov
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2015, 05:05:58 PM »
BTW, palmgren :-) I've never seen how floral surnames are common in both Swedish and Russian, although I'm not sure if the baser Russian ones can be said to be "ornamental", like the Swedish ones:

Despite claiming descent from a medieval Circassian prince, the Lopukhin name is a quite ordinary Russian plant-based surname, derived from лопух / lopukh - burdock or arctium.
Березы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и березы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline rpalmgre

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Re: Lopukhin-Demidov
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2015, 02:43:57 PM »
Interesting how this family seems to have been caught up in the current Russian succession quarrel:

It would be interesting to know why Grand Duchess MARIA of Russia do not acknowledge the Lopukhin-Demidov family of the House of Demidov. I have been thinking about writing to her office and ask why this is the case. What do you think? I do not see any reason for not accepting the legitimizy of The 4th Prince Lopukhin-Demidov.

I recommend a look at the genealogies of Lopukhin-Demidov at An Online Gotha by Paul Theroff: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/gotha/gotha/demidov.html I have sent him corrections about the present family and the parents of The 4th Prince Lopukhin-Demidov.

The Princes Lopukhin are listed as extant, although there never were any standard Princes Lopukhin before the elevation of one line to Most Serene Princes. They were just boyars / nobles and other lines continued to flourish as such, also after the extinction of the agnatic Serene Princes. One of them remained in Russia after the Revolution: Oleg Mikhailovich Lopukhin (1924 - 1993) was a Captain in the Soviet Navy and Head of Arkhangelsk Naval College untill 1985. From 1992 he was a Full member of the Russian Nobility Assembly. His son, "Prince" Vadim Olegovich, with a background in Soviet medicine, is apparantly a leading member of the Russian Nobility Association since 1990 and a close collaborator of Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna, acting as "Chief Coordinator of the All-Highest Visits to Russia".

Since this line of the Lopukhins never was princely, it must have been GD MV who has granted him the title he sports and is credited with in various press releases connected to GD MV. Was her reasoning perhaps that since the Princes Demidov of San Donato are extinct in the male line since 1943, the Demidovs in Finland can now revert to being merely Princes Demidov? And that remaining untitled Lopukhins can be raised to the princely rank?

The Russian Princely House of Lopukhin became extinct when His Serene Highness Prince Paul Petrovitch Lopukhin died without legitimate issue in 1873. The title Prince Lopukhin was then handed over to the family Demidov in accordance to primogeniture as Prince Lopukhin-Demidov and the qualification "Serene Highness" by Imperial Ukase 21 January 1876.

The 3rd Prince Lopukhin-Demidov died in New Hampshire 28 September 1995. The office of Grand Duchess MARIA of Russia do not know or ignores that his younger brother Aleksander Demidoff had a son Yrjö ONNI Johannes Demidoff in Helsinki on 23 April 1936. He is the present Prince Lopukhin-Demidov. I seek especially a picture of him so if anyone has a picture then please forward it to me. We are distantly related to each other. Thank you!

When The 3rd Prince Lopukhin-Demidov died in 1995 Grand Duchess MARIA of Russia created a new Prince Lopukhin. I do not give much credit to that as she is not a reigning monarch.

Offline rpalmgre

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Re: Lopukhin-Demidov
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2015, 02:57:18 PM »
the Lopukhin name is a quite ordinary Russian plant-based surname, derived from лопух / lopukh - burdock or arctium.

Can the surname Lopukhin mean an Oak? The 2nd Prince Lopukhin-Demidov had a son Pjotr Demidov in Saint Petersburg on 31 August 1916. He changed his surname to the Finnish surname Tammipuu. His issue are surnamned Tammipuu. Observe that the surname is written Tammipuu and not Tammipoo as can be seen at An Online Gotha by Paul Theroff: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/gotha/gotha/demidov.html Tammipuu is a Finnish word. In a direct translation to Finnish it is "Oak Tree". It would be interesting because then they use the Russian surname Lopukhin in a Finnish translation and not the surname Demidoff as the Princely family of Lopukhin-Demidov do.

Offline Превед

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Re: Lopukhin-Demidov
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2015, 03:32:15 PM »
It would be interesting to know why Grand Duchess MARIA of Russia do not acknowledge the Lopukhin-Demidov family of the House of Demidov. I have been thinking about writing to her office and ask why this is the case. What do you think? I do not see any reason for not accepting the legitimizy of The 4th Prince Lopukhin-Demidov.

I agree. You should write her, it will be interesting to know.

When researching the matter I came across some site denouncing the Lopukhin-Demidovs as "having deserted Russia", i.e. moved to Finland. (It said ridiculous things like they now had "unpronounceable Finnish names", i.e. Yrjö?) May it have something to do with participation on the Finnish side in WW2, i.e. fighting against Soviet Russia as an ally of Nazi Germany? If so, I don't think GD Maria as a Vladimirovichi should be the first to cast stones....

Quote
When The 3rd Prince Lopukhin-Demidov died in 1995 Grand Duchess MARIA of Russia created a new Prince Lopukhin. I do not give much credit to that as she is not a reigning monarch.

I can see how GD MV, if she was desperate to reward some important Russian backer called Lopukhin (whether of the noble Lopukhins I can't say for sure) might have made up some phony reasoning about how transferring a princely title via a cognatic line was "a breach with old Russian custom", especially when there still are noble Lopukhins around and the senior line of the Demidov princely family itself is extinct, and the junior Demidovs thus have their own agnatic title to carry.

Quote
Can the surname Lopukhin mean an Oak? The 2nd Prince Lopukhin-Demidov had a son Pjotr Demidov in Saint Petersburg on 31 August 1916. He changed his surname to the Finnish surname Tammipuu. His issue are surnamned Tammipuu. Observe that the surname is written Tammipuu and not Tammipoo as can be seen at An Online Gotha by Paul Theroff: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/gotha/gotha/demidov.html Tammipuu is a Finnish word. In a direct translation to Finnish it is "Oak Tree". It would be interesting because then they use the Russian surname Lopukhin in a Finnish translation and not the surname Demidoff as the Princely family of Lopukhin-Demidov do.

No, oak is дуб, dub, in Russian. I'd rather think Tammipuu was chosen because it sounds somewhat similar to Demidov.
BTW I was recently in Finland and it took a little time before I understood that the monolingual signs for Tammisaari were for Ekenäs. :-)
« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 03:39:54 PM by Превед »
Березы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и березы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline rpalmgre

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Re: Lopukhin-Demidov
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2015, 02:16:07 PM »
I agree. You should write her, it will be interesting to know.

When researching the matter I came across some site denouncing the Lopukhin-Demidovs as "having deserted Russia", i.e. moved to Finland. (It said ridiculous things like they now had "unpronounceable Finnish names", i.e. Yrjö?) May it have something to do with participation on the Finnish side in WW2, i.e. fighting against Soviet Russia as an ally of Nazi Germany? If so, I don't think GD Maria as a Vladimirovichi should be the first to cast stones....

Where did you read that? Yrjö is the Finnish form for George. I think it does not really matter what Grand Duchess MARIA of Russia think because she is not the Head of the Imperial House of Russia in my opinion.

the senior line of the Demidov princely family itself is extinct, and the junior Demidovs thus have their own agnatic title to carry.

What do you mean?

I'd rather think Tammipuu was chosen because it sounds somewhat similar to Demidov.

I am skeptical to that idea because to me Tammipuu and Demidoff do not sound the same in Finnish.


I was recently in Finland

Great. Were do you otherwise live? How did you enjoy Finland? :)
« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 02:17:53 PM by rpalmgre »

Offline Превед

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Re: Lopukhin-Demidov
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2015, 04:05:37 PM »
I agree. You should write her, it will be interesting to know.

When researching the matter I came across some site denouncing the Lopukhin-Demidovs as "having deserted Russia", i.e. moved to Finland. (It said ridiculous things like they now had "unpronounceable Finnish names", i.e. Yrjö?) May it have something to do with participation on the Finnish side in WW2, i.e. fighting against Soviet Russia as an ally of Nazi Germany? If so, I don't think GD Maria as a Vladimirovichi should be the first to cast stones....

Where did you read that?
It was on some Russian site, which I translated with Google Translate, but now I can't find it again.

Quote
the senior line of the Demidov princely family itself is extinct, and the junior Demidovs thus have their own agnatic title to carry.
What do you mean?
The agnatic line of the Demidov Princes of San Donato went extinct with the death of the 4th Prince in 1943. I'm not sure if this means that the Counts Demidovs also are extinct.

Quote
I am skeptical to that idea because to me Tammipuu and Demidoff do not sound the same in Finnish.
I just meant they sound similar, not the same.


Quote
I was recently in Finland

Great. Were do you otherwise live? How did you enjoy Finland? :)

I live in Norway. I had visited Helsingfors before, but now, on a road trip around the Baltic, we took the ferry from Tallinn to Helsingfors, drove to Åbo and took the ferry from Nådendal to Stockholm. I like Finland very much, particularly the bilingual aspect (very convenient for a Scandinavian to be able to communicate in Swedish with everybody in southwestern Finland and at the same time enjoying the pleasure of a totally different, exotic language!) but it was a shame that all the rural hotels in the countryside were closed during the weekend, so we could not stay at Svartå or Fiskars manors. But the (trailer) ferry from Nådendal to Sweden was a real cruise!

BTW I had imagined that coastal Nyland and Åboland would look like very open farmland, with much deciduous forest, so I was quite surprised that it looked so..... Finnish, very sparsely populated and with huge fir and spruce forests. :-) I had also always imagined that the Moomins were products of Tove Jansson's imagination, but when I saw the Finns (from the interior?) on holiday in Nådendal at breakfast I realized that the Moomins are a loving caricature of Finns - especially those broad snouts! It was also real fun being in Estonia and understanding quite a bit of the language in the forms of signs etc. due to my knowledge of Finnish. And I agree with the Finns that Estonian is just cute, like a childish version of Finnish!

« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 04:31:14 PM by Превед »
Березы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и березы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline Превед

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Re: Lopukhin-Demidov
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2015, 06:00:15 AM »
I agree. You should write her, it will be interesting to know.

When researching the matter I came across some site denouncing the Lopukhin-Demidovs as "having deserted Russia", i.e. moved to Finland. (It said ridiculous things like they now had "unpronounceable Finnish names", i.e. Yrjö?) May it have something to do with participation on the Finnish side in WW2, i.e. fighting against Soviet Russia as an ally of Nazi Germany? If so, I don't think GD Maria as a Vladimirovichi should be the first to cast stones....

Where did you read that?
It was on some Russian site, which I translated with Google Translate, but now I can't find it again.

Found it again. Turns out it wasn't so harsh anyway:

http://uiro.narod.ru/articles/konference2001_10.htm
The site appears to be a genealogical site with articles about families connected with the Urals, where the Demidovs hail from.

Translated:
Next The existing branch starts from cousin Alexander -Serene Prince Nikolai Petrovich Lopukhin-Demidov, received the title of Serene Prince Lopukhin from the childless brother of his grandmother Catherine Petrovna Lopukhina, who was married to Grigory Demidov.

His son Alexander, the second Serene Prince Lopukhin-Demidov had an estate in Finland, where to he fled with his family after the revolution. In Finland, he quickly went bankrupt. They lived with the princess by the last horse and last cow for that and take care of themselves. In 1937, the prince died after falling from the cart with hay on icy roads.

The remaining six sons who from an early age and had to work themselves contain. They are almost our contemporaries - the latter died in 1998. The eldest son Nikolai (1904-1995) first served as a customs official in Finland, then engaged in the sale of spirits in the United States, where he died childless. He was supposed to inherit the title of Prince after the death of his father, but in America titles are ignored.

The second son, Alexander (1905-1982) was engaged in timber trade and paper in the United States and Finland, where he died.

The third - Sergei (1906-1995) was a successful businessman in the field of heavy engineering, died in Argentina.

Andrew died young still in Russia. The hardest thing? was that he had two sons who were much younger, and so parents do not have time to educate them. George (1914-1968) was a painter, he served in the Japanese Embassy in Finland.

Peter (1916-1998) with 13 years he earned his living, participated in the Russian-Finnish war of 1939 and during the Second World War on the side of Finland. In 1942, changing his name, he was called Pekka Tammipuu. After the war, he served on the committee for awards, became Russian translator with hockey teams, but to his children and grandchildren the Russian language is not taught.

The next generation of children were only Alexander and Peter-Pekka (bearing the name Tammipuu). On the maternal side and by education they are already Finns.

Son Alexander Iryu-Onni-Johannes (p. 1936) after the death of the childless uncle had become the fourth Serene Prince Lopukhin-Demidov. He has two children: Nicholas, Alexander Paul (b. 1976) and Natalie-Anne-Marie (b. 1977).

Petr-Pekka has quite a lot of descendants for three generations, they have received the name of Tammipuu. His son Seppo-Tapani Tammipuu (b. 1943) worked for some time in a Finnish construction company near St. Petersburg, and later came one day in St. Petersburg, met with the author and his sister Tatyana Borisovna pyatiyurodnoy Loboda. Seppo brought and handed over to the author of the Finnish magazine devoted to his family, sent genealogical data, a book about his grandmother and reports on major developments in the family. He brought and sent family photos, including pre-revolutionary. In Seppo has three sisters, those many descendants, all with difficult to pronounce Finnish names.

Son of Seppo Tapani - Christian-Oliver (b. 1974) also worked briefly near St. Petersburg with his father. He has two children, which are only one-eighth Russian  - Emma-Saar-Elvira (b. 1997) and Elmer-Vaino-Alexander (b. 1999) - is now probably the youngest of the descendants of Gregory Akinfievich Demidov.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2015, 06:25:47 AM by Превед »
Березы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и березы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline Превед

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Re: Lopukhin-Demidov
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2015, 06:16:13 AM »
Here is another Russian site about the family, with some recent family photos in Часть 2 / Part 2, but not of the 4th Prince, unfortunately:
http://www.liveinternet.ru/users/4000579/post327562762
http://www.liveinternet.ru/users/4000579/post327634826/
« Last Edit: July 31, 2015, 06:22:50 AM by Превед »
Березы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и березы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline rpalmgre

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Re: Lopukhin-Demidov
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2015, 05:37:23 AM »
The agnatic line of the Demidov Princes of San Donato went extinct with the death of the 4th Prince in 1943. I'm not sure if this means that the Counts Demidovs also are extinct

The San Donato title and line of the House of Demidov is sadly extinct. There has never existed any Counts of the House of Demidov. Those that did not have a princely title were and still are untitled Russian nobility. That is why both Nikolai Demidoff and Natalia Demidoff are just untitled Russian lesser nobility.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2015, 05:39:04 AM by rpalmgre »

Offline Превед

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Re: Lopukhin-Demidov
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2015, 02:47:49 AM »
The agnatic line of the Demidov Princes of San Donato went extinct with the death of the 4th Prince in 1943. I'm not sure if this means that the Counts Demidovs also are extinct

There has never existed any Counts of the House of Demidov. Those that did not have a princely title were and still are untitled Russian nobility. That is why both Nikolai Demidoff and Natalia Demidoff are just untitled Russian lesser nobility.

The San Donato line was granted a grand-ducal Tuscan comital title, a few years before they were made Tuscan princes. So I guess that one too has died out.
Березы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и березы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline rpalmgre

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Re: Lopukhin-Demidov
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2015, 02:42:03 PM »
Thank you for your information. I have now updated the genealogical information about the present day Princely family of Lopukhin-Demidov. You can find it here on Paul Theroffs An Online Gotha: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/gotha/gotha/demidov.html