Author Topic: Parallels between Rasputin and Lyndon Baines Johnson  (Read 70203 times)

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Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Parallels between Rasputin and Lyndon Baines Johnson
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2015, 04:39:16 PM »
 During WW I the Russian army often treated the people of Eastern Europe badly. Most of its leadership according to a survey done during the early war period distrusted Jews to put it mildly. Pogroms were committed against Jews and many Jews, Germans and others were rounded up and deported to the Russian interior. The minutes of the meeting of the Council of Ministers contain a number of complaints about these actions while also making anti-Semitic remarks and some of these people were considered to be liberals. In their defense they did try and stop them but, without much success. Result the Russian Empire had to take care of several million refugees which its already inadequate rail system could not handle in addition to supplying the army. The result was the breakdown that caused the February/march 1917 revolution. These refugees who lost most of what they owned during their deportations if they didn't like the goverment before they sure hated it now. So you can say the Russian army's leadership destroyed their own country do to their own stupidity and brutality. As for Rasputin he spoke out against these and other actions by the army which probably made him really unpopular with the Generals. Yussopov probably knew this and this could be why he involved Dmitri P in the plot. Since Yussopov was a officer in training wanted to make sure he wasn't punished later. It should also be pointed out no Guards Cavalry Regiment wanted him to join their unit (one wonders why?). So He also thought killing Rasputin would get him accepted.

Other reasons why Rasputin was so hated and demonized:

The opposition groups demonized him to make Alexandra and indirectly Nicholas look bad

Upper classes were upset that a peasant has access to the Tsar and they don't

The church was upset that Rasputin interfered with their right to mediate between god and people

Police and goverment officials  Rasputin was disrupting goverment affairs

The Pro-war supporters believed Rasputin was for peace.

Post Russian Revol;ution and WW I Rasputin was a handy scapegoat for everything that went wrong for the people who lost.

Other comments:

Rasputin was originally supposed to have a 5 minute talk with Nicholas and Alexandra. The talk lasted an hour.

While the Upper and middle classes celibrated Rasputin's murder the lower classes were disturbed and in some cases angry over it.

When his mother wrote him to complain about Rasputin Nicholas wrote back saying it wasn't true.

Nicholas once recieved a report about Rasputin behaving badly. Checking through his diaries he found Rasputin was with him and his wife at this time. Sending overblown reports on Rasputin seems to have occured more than a few times.

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Parallels between Rasputin and Lyndon Baines Johnson
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2015, 12:14:09 AM »
Hello James

All this is very interesting.

No Guards Cavalry regiment was prepared to take Yussupov. Well,well!

Ann

Offline edubs31

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Re: Parallels between Rasputin and Lyndon Baines Johnson
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2015, 12:43:00 PM »
James, I enjoyed reading this as well.

On a related note how responsible is LBJ for the fall of the Russia Empire? And how intimately involved was Rasputin in the conspiracy to assassinated JFK? 

All jokes aside how much influence do you believe Rasputin had on the decision making process of Nicholas & Alexandra? If he was somewhat responsible for even a few of the atrocious political appointments Nicholas made during the war than he is probably correctly vilified. Of course much, if not most, of these accusations of Rasputin's meddling in the affairs of state seems to be grossly exaggerated.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right...

Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Parallels between Rasputin and Lyndon Baines Johnson
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2015, 02:54:49 PM »
It appears Rasputin had a lot less influence over Nicholas and Alexandra than what was believed. It seems a number of the appointments and firing blamed on Rasputin and to a lesser extent Alexandra were done mainly by Nicholas. I will have a number of examples in a later reply.

Offline Nictionary

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Re: Parallels between Rasputin and Lyndon Baines Johnson
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2015, 12:31:21 AM »
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As for George Parr he liked to hunt deer from a helicopter, which is also illegal
Someone should've told Sarah Palin ; )
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Winning the hearts and minds of the people is what matters in the long run unless your plan is to destroy and conquer that country (Japan and Germany in WW2 for example).
That's exactly the point.  In WW2, the US knew exactly what it wanted and worked hard to get it.  It was a mistake to go into Vietnam with ill-defined objectives and without being totally committed to the mission.  "Having involved itself, America should have followed the logic of its position and responded to aggression by occupying the North.  To bomb was a weak compromise, absolutely characteristic of the irresolution which dogged American policy throughout the tragedy. ... Even as a bomber [Johnson] was indecisive.  The Air Force told him they could promise results if the offensive was heavy, swift, repeated endlessly and without restraint.  This was the whole lesson of the Second World War.  They promised nothing if it was slowed and restricted.  Yet that was precisely what Johnson did.  From start to finish, the bombing was limited by restrictions which were entirely political. ... Johnson was not the ruthless man he liked to impersonate: he was paralysed by moral restraints.  As his biographer, Doris Kearns, shrewdly observed, to him 'limited bombing was seduction, not rape, and seduction was controllable, even reversible.'  Thus the bombing intensified very slowly and the Vietminh had time to build shelters and adjust.  When Soviet Russia moved in defensive missiles, American bombers were not allowed to attack while the sites were under construction.  There were, in addition, sixteen 'bombing pauses', none of which evoked the slightest response, and seventy-two American 'peace initiatives', which fell on deaf ears.  Unlike the Americans, the North Vietnamese leaders never once wavered in their determination to secure their political aim ... at any cost.  They do not seem to have been influenced in the smallest degree by the casualties their subjects suffered or inflicted. ... [T]he experience of the twentieth century indicates that self-imposed restraints by a civilized state are worse than useless.  They are interpreted by friend and foe alike as evidence, not of humanity, but of guilt or lack of righteous conviction.  Despite them, indeed because of them, Johnson lost the propaganda battle, not only in the West as a whole but especially in the USA, where it mattered most.  Initially the Vietnam war had the support of the moderate liberal consensus.  'The US has a major interest in the defence of Vietnam,' the Washington Post wrote, 7 April 1961.  'American prestige is very much involved in the effort to protect the Vietnamese people from Communist absorption.  The New York Times admitted, 12 March 1963, that 'The cost [of saving Vietnam] is large, but the cost of South-East Asia coming under the domination of Russia and China would be still larger.'  On 21 May 1964 the Times urged: 'If we demonstrate that we will make whatever military and political effort [denying victory to Communism] requires, the Communists sooner or later will recognize reality.'  The Post insisted, 1 June 1964, that America continue to show in Vietnam that 'persistence in aggression is fruitless and possibly deadly.' "(Paul Johnson,  Modern Times, pp 634, 635-6).  At the time of the first major demonstration at Berkeley on September 30, 1964, polls showed 85% of Americans still supported Johnson's policy.  He lost the war because he wasn't tough enough.  Lady Bird Johnson recalled that her husband had "no stomach for it, no heart for it."  Also, the same attention to detail that served him well in his legislative dealings worked against him in wartime.  

« Last Edit: August 22, 2015, 12:50:05 AM by Nictionary »
The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.

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Offline Nictionary

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Re: Parallels between Rasputin and Lyndon Baines Johnson
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2015, 12:40:42 AM »

More on Soviet influence on the peace movement:
I am not suggesting that the antiwar movement was engineered by the Soviets, but there is evidence that it was infiltrated and manipulated by them.
There is a book you might want to look into which provides info on Eastern Bloc aid to the radical left.  MH/CHAOS: The CIA's campaign against the Radical New Left and the Black Panthers, was written by Frank Rafalko, a former CIA counterintelligence officer involved in a program charged with unmasking any foreign influences on the New Left.
 How could a huge antiwar rally in an American city also take place on the same date as similar rallies occurred in Paris, Rome, Berlin, and other major foreign cities?  Didn't Gen. Giap thank the peace movement for its help?  CIA Director Richard Helms wrote a letter on the New Left to J. Edgar Hoover in 1970, in which he said that increasingly close connections between those forces in the US and hostile elements abroad had been well-established by both their agencies.
The CIA documented overseas trips where antiwar activists met with representatives of North Vietnam, North Korea, China, Cuba, and Arab terrorists.
The Communist Party USA originally organized the Student Mobilization Committee, one of the largest and most effective protest groups during Vietnam.
SDS was originally a very liberal, very pacifist type organization, but it evolved into a violence-prone revolutionary group.  When it first drew up an anti-draft program encouraging conscientious objection in the fall of 1965, spokesmen emphasized that SDS did not advocate illegal methods of avoiding the draft.  But not long afterward, the group's relationship with its parent organization, the League for Industrial Democracy, broke down.  The old-line socialists running the LID were always wary of Communist attempts to infiltrate socialist groups and disliked the presence in SDS ranks of "red diaper babies" with family ties to the Communist Party.  SDS chose solidarity over ideological purity and defied the LID by striking a Communist-exclusion clause from its constitution.  In October 1965 SDS broke with the LID.  At about the same time, a Communist youth group called Progressive Labor began to infiltrate Midwest and East Coast SDS chapters.  SDS rhetoric became much more radical, and nonviolence was less often invoked.  Terms like "militant action" and "physical confrontation," imported from European student movements were increasingly heard.  The organization came to be headed by Mike Klonsky, who declared himself a Marxist revolutionary working to overthrow American society.
Maybe there is no smoking gun to connect the Eastern Bloc and the New Left, but the gun had a certain glow about it.  The Soviets funded many "international peace conferences" and purchased Aeroflot tickets for many attendees.  Lunev said Soviet intelligence funneled money to antiwar groups via front companies to conceal the money's origin.
The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.

Albert Einstein

Offline Nictionary

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Re: Parallels between Rasputin and Lyndon Baines Johnson
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2015, 12:44:34 AM »
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The Dark Side of Camelot
 
I think this book should be taken with a pinch of salt.  Hersh presented many titillating details as though they were new, when in fact they had been known for some time, as Newsweek pointed out at the time the book was published.  Many of the claims in the book lack solid proof.  It is questionable whether some of the people Hersh interviewed for the book can be believed.  He claims that Sam Giancana used mob muscle to fix Kennedy's election.  Why would Kennedy need Giancana to deliver Chicago for him when he had the Daley machine available?  And if Giancana had such a big I.O.U. from the Kennedys, why did RFK's DOJ go after him so vigorously?  Hersh charges that Judith Exner acted as a courier between Kennedy and Giancana.  While Exner had made that claim previously, she wasn't the most reliable source.  She was afraid of a mob hit and changed her story many times.  Of the 2 sources that Hersh cited to back her up, one, Johnny Grant, was a Nixon supporter.  The other, Martin Underwood, claimed to have followed Exner home to Chicago following a tryst with Kennedy and watched as she passed a satchelful of cash to Giancana.  Would JFK really have used a none-too-bright mistress to handle something that sensitive?  Surely his father taught him how to protect secrets.  And would a powerful Mafia don like Giancana really wait around a train platform in Chicago to wait for his gf?  Hersh fails to acknowledge the gauziness of his proof on many of the claims he makes about JFK's mob ties.  Hersh attempts to cover up weak reporting.  He has never cared about the truth as much as the big score.  Hersh relies primarily on human sources, which can be problematic.  The primary witness for Hersh's charge that Kennedy was a bigamist was suffering from memory loss at the time Hersh interviewed him.  Hersh's credibility has further declined with his charges that Turkish intelligence was behind the August 2013 Damascus gas attack, as well as his absurd claims about bin Laden's death.

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As for LBJ there are accounts of him calling the news media outlets and stopping stories and investigations.

He can't have had much success doing this, since media coverage of Vietnam was a primary factor in making the war unpopular.

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I have also read that there was a private detective who was investigating LBJ that "commited Suicide". he shot himself several times with a 22 rifle!
 

If you're referring to the Henry Marshall case, Marshall's cause of death was eventually changed from suicide to murder by a grand jury.  Billie Sol Estes told the grand jury that LBJ ordered the murder.  The prosecutor conducting the grand jury investigation said there was no corroboration of Estes' allegations.  Estes went on to write a book claiming that Johnson had JFK shot, an allegation rejected by prominent historians.

 
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Back to Rasputin Dr E Botkin wrote in 1913 "If Rasputin didn't exist the opposition would have invented him."

I more or less agree.  After all Rasputin was preceded by Philippe Nizier-Vachod.  Adam Ulam pointed out (Russia's Failed Revolutions) "Rasputin was but the latest of a number of such spiritualist faith healers who had gained access to and influence over the imperial family. ... Rasputin was undoubtedly a factor, but not a very important one in the sequence of events that caused the downfall of the monarchy ... Granting the personalities of the tsar and his spouse, it is hard to resist the conclusion that if Rasputin did not exist, someone like him would have inevitably found his way to their entourage, and even without a holy man at their side, their attitudes toward the Duma, autocracy, reforms, et cetera would have been pretty much the same.  Rasputin was a product, and then became the focus, of not so much the dark but obscurantist forces around the court.  They in turn were a national consequence of the court's isolation from what was vital and rational in society."

 
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Rasputin often spoke out in defense of Jews and other groups in Russia where a good part of the population was anti-sematic in some cases rabidly so. This is probably the main reason why he was so hated, bad mouthed and murdered. Not his bad behavior.

If so, why hasn't the former gotten as much press as the latter?

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Lets not forget this is a forum dedicated largely to the Romanovs and European Royalty, not discussions on American Presidents or bizarre comparisons between those Presidents and Rasputin, lol.

I just hope this topic doesn't get too far out of bounds and upset the moderators.

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On a related note how responsible is LBJ for the fall of the Russia Empire? And how intimately involved was Rasputin in the conspiracy to assassinated JFK?  

Yeah, Rasputin faked his own death and killed JFK to stop him revealing that Bigfoot is real  ; ).
« Last Edit: August 22, 2015, 12:48:17 AM by Nictionary »
The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.

Albert Einstein

Offline Nictionary

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Re: Parallels between Rasputin and Lyndon Baines Johnson
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2015, 10:58:04 PM »

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The Pro-war supporters believed Rasputin was for peace. 

Well, he was against war, wasn't he?

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When his mother wrote him to complain about Rasputin Nicholas wrote back saying it wasn't true.

Nicholas once recieved a report about Rasputin behaving badly. Checking through his diaries he found Rasputin was with him and his wife at this time. Sending overblown reports on Rasputin seems to have occured more than a few times.

No doubt many of the reports on Rasputin were overblown, and some may have been outright fabrications, such as Vishnyakova's allegation.  But most of the reports of his debauchery had to have been at least based on truth, or else people wouldn't have believed them so easily.  Where there's smoke there's usually fire.  Let's not forget that Rasputin once made a pass at Olga Alexandrovna.  And then there was the time that someone tried to blackmail Rasputin by secretly taking a photograph that captured a drunken, nude Rasputin carousing with women at a party, only to have their plans backfire when Rasputin took the pics to Nicholas and said that he had succumbed to temptation.  Helen Rappaport writes that Nicholas once reprimanded Rasputin for having boasted of his influence over Alexandra while in his cups, allegedly saying, "I can make her do anything."  On this occasion Rasputin admitted that he had indeed been "sinful."

You mention above that a doctor ascribed the shriveled state of Rasputin's genitals to alcohol and syphilis.  One does not get VD from being a pure holy man.  Even if it was from only one encounter, and even if Rasputin repented afterward, it is evidence that he engaged in reckless conduct with women and alcohol at some point.
There is evidence Rasputin began drinking more heavily after Guseva's attempt on his life.


Rasputin's frequent visits to bathhouses have been well-documented, his last such visit occurring the day before his death.

It's important to remember that the starets was always on his best behavior in front of N&A, and he worked hard to convince them there was only one side to him.  Despite being a man of religion, he was a shrewd opportunist.  Even so, Nicholas at least seems to have been aware of Rasputin's dark side but chose to ignore it because of Alexei's reliance on the starets, hence his reported comment, "Better one Rasputin than ten fits of hysterics a day." And you will recall that Olga N. told Chebotareva, "Maybe it was necessary to kill him."

Alexandra on one occasion sent Sablin to go meet Rasputin; he admitted that he had come away with a negative impression, to which Alexandra replied, "You cannot understand him because you are so far removed from such people, but even if your opinion is correct, then it is G-d's will that it is such."

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It appears Rasputin had a lot less influence over Nicholas and Alexandra than what was believed. It seems a number of the appointments and firing blamed on Rasputin and to a lesser extent Alexandra were done mainly by Nicholas.

Rasputin played a significant role in getting Nikolasha dismissed, telling Alexandra that Nikolasha wanted to claim the throne.

At one point the post of Minister of the Interior was vacant for 4 months because Rasputin didn't find any of the candidates suitable.
The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.

Albert Einstein

Offline edubs31

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Re: Parallels between Rasputin and Lyndon Baines Johnson
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2015, 11:08:25 AM »
You're on a roll here Nictionary and it'll take a while to catch up. A couple of thoughts for now...

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Johnson was not the ruthless man he liked to impersonate: he was paralysed by moral restraints.

I can see that. Actually I think one of the classic failures we made in Vietnam - which may very well have contributed to the "limited bombing will work" mindset - is that we underestimated the resolve and resourcefulness of the enemy. I've seen/read somewhere where LBJ in a fit of frustration and despair ranted to his subordinates that he couldn't believe these little backwards people in black pajamas could stand up to the mighty American military. He just couldn't understand our lack of success.

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At the time of the first major demonstration at Berkeley on September 30, 1964, polls showed 85% of Americans still supported Johnson's policy.

Polls taken shortly after 9/11/01 on the topic of whether the US should invade Iraq were very similar. Bush's own approval rating soared to 90% in the weeks after the attack. A poll taken in September of '64, with LBJ on his way to an historic landslide victory, and before America got seriously involved in the Vietnam conflict was bound to suggest much better levels of support than a similar poll take in, say, 1968 after the Tet Offensive...Keep in mind also that the American public viewed their government with much less hostility than they do today. The Vietnam War and Watergate scandal ruined the respect and trust that many, if not most, Americans placed in their Federal Government. In 1964 however most Americans we're probably willing to give their leaders the benefit of the doubt most of the time. And why not? Kennedy was extremely popular and deeply mourned upon his death, and Eisenhower was an iconic figure before him. Over the previous two decades the US had won a world war and made incredible advances in science, technology and culture. Cold War hysteria aside it was definitely and era of good feeling. At least compared to the country and attitudes of people today.

Never the less Johnson's own approval ratings slumped from around 70% in early-1965 to under-50% by 1967 and under-40% during certain periods in 1968...also not unlike Bush's 2003-2008 timeline. What did both President's have in common? A largely unpopular war dragging them down. Although at least LBJ had a strong economy and social legislation accomplishments to boast about.

Few President's have fallen from such a high pedestal as LBJ, and the war was obviously the primary reason. Bush lost the popular vote in 2000 and was narrowly reelected in 2004. The combination of the war and botched response to Katrina (not to mention fierce partisan opposition from the Left) began sinking his approval ratings in the fall of 2005 and they never recovered. He was never above 50% in the polls from mid-2005 on and was never above 40% after the early-autumn in 2006.

Johnson's decline was far more rapid and from a much higher pedestal. He won 61% of the popular vote in November, 1964 and kept his approval ratings over 60% until early 1966. For a President to be viewed as popular as LBJ was and not even seek his party's nomination for reelection less than 3 1/2 years later is pretty astonishing...especially when you factor in the relative health of the American economy and his aforementioned domestic accomplishments. Only a man who is either so personally despised by the American people, gets caught up in a major scandal (ala Nixon), or has a disastrous foreign policy blunder hanging around his neck could see his Presidency crumble so quickly.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right...

Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Parallels between Rasputin and Lyndon Baines Johnson
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2015, 03:51:33 PM »
The Provisional Government investigated Rasputin and I believe Nelpa on her book on Rasputin states they didn't find very much on him and this is by people who were looking for any information to make Rasputin, Nicholas and Alexandra look bad. 

As for STDs in Russia most Russians had one. At one time or other. In some villages all the adults and many of the children had them.

As for Rasputin's say on who got hired or fired:

Grand Duke Nicolas N he was not a great general He totally lost control of the situation at the front after the Glorice Tarnow offensive and was having a nervous breakdown when Nicholas replaced him with himself. Remember this command slot was drawn up with Nicholas in mind. It had always been somewhat ackward with GD NN in command. Nicholas hoped this would inspire the troops which it may have a little. Stavka did function better with him in command. It should also be pointed out both his grandfather Alexander II and great great grandfather Alexander I both took command of the army with no complaints. Nicholas made this decision on his own with little imput from anyone and none from Rasputin. It should also be pointed out he really could not replace GD NN with a commener since it would make the family look bad.

Minister of the Interior A. N. Khvostov is supposed to have got the job because Rasputin liked his singing. Reality he had been a governor of two provinces and was a member of the Duma. he was the first Duma member to get a cabinet post. Nicholas had a favorable impression of him. It also may of helped his uncle A.A. Khvostov was Justice Minister. A.N. Khvostov was totally amoral to put it mildly and was justice minister from October 1915 to March 1916. He was fired because it was found out he was plotting to have Rasputin murdered. With friends like these. His uncle later said he didn't think he was up to the job.

Prime Minister V Kokovstov 1911-1914 was fired by Nicholas because he was not doing a good job as PM not because of Rasputin. Kokovstov was honest and hard working but that's all that was really good about him.

Foreign Miister S Sazanov was fired because of contacts with opposion groups not because Alexandra, Rasputin and others were upset with him over Polish autonomy.

Offline Превед

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Re: Parallels between Rasputin and Lyndon Baines Johnson
« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2015, 04:00:40 PM »
As for STDs in Russia most Russians had one. At one time or other. In some villages all the adults and many of the children had them.

Whtt???
Березы севера мне милы,
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: Ивы и березы, 1843 / 1856)

Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Parallels between Rasputin and Lyndon Baines Johnson
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2015, 05:19:26 PM »
Believe it or not STDs were widespread among the Russian peasants. Many of these people had little or no access to medical care. Children often got it from their mothers. This is from the book "In war's dark shadow"

more on Rasputin's say on who got hired or fired:

PM B Stuermer It appears Nicholas picked him on his own. He did know the man and had considered once making him minister of the Interior. It appears Rasputin had little if anything to do with his appointment.

War Minister A Polivanov was fired as assistant war minister in 1912 for scheming with Duma Leader Guchkov. In 1915 he was appointed war minister on the recommendation of GD NN. He was fired by Nicholas for scheming with Guchkov again. not for objecting about Rasputin's use of official cars. Polivanov according to most sources was a really good administrator but was ruthlessly ambitious and wanted to be military dictator of Russia according to some sources. So you can see why Alexandra didn't like this man and why Nicolas fired him.

Minister  of the Interior A Protopopov almost everyone in Russia liked this man until he was made minister of the Interior then he soon became one of the most hated ministers in Russian history. Note he was only minister of the interior from September 1916 to March 1917.

Finance minister 1914-1917 Peter Bark Rasputin did support his being made finance minister. His Jewish banker friends liked the man. Bark had been Assistant minister of trade and commerce from 1911-1914. So it can be said Nicholas knew the man and probably made him Finance minister with little or no imput from Rasputin. Under Bark Russia did melt down fiscally and he did warn people about the fiscal crises in Russia in 1916-17. Post WW I he went to live in England where he got a job in banking. King George V made him fiscal advisor to Grand Duchess Xenia A and i believe other Romanovs. Bark was knighted by KGV in 1935. So you can say he wasn't a fiscal genius but he wasn't crooked either.
.

Offline Nictionary

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Re: Parallels between Rasputin and Lyndon Baines Johnson
« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2015, 06:20:15 PM »
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Believe it or not STDs were widespread among the Russian peasants. Many of these people had little or no access to medical care. 
Does that mean that many Russian men at this time had shriveled genitals?  And if so, why did Vredens find it noteworthy in Rasputin's case?

If Nicholas' ministerial appointments weren't influenced by Rasputin via Alexandra, does this mean the tsar ignored the letters on the subject that his wife bombarded him with?
The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.

Albert Einstein

Offline Nictionary

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Re: Parallels between Rasputin and Lyndon Baines Johnson
« Reply #28 on: August 28, 2015, 12:24:08 AM »
Rasputin played a role in bringing a halt to the successful Brusilov offensive.  On July 25 (O.S.), 1916, the tsaritsa wrote to Nicholas, "Our Friend ... finds better one should not advance too obstinately as the losses will be too great."  On August 8: "Our Friend hopes we won't climb over the Carpathians and try to take them, as he repeats the losses will be too great again."  On September 21, Nicholas wrote, "I told Alexeiev to order Brusilov to stop our hopeless attacks."  Alexandra happily replied, "Our Friend says about the new orders you gave to Brusilov: 'Very satisfied with Father's orders, all will be well.' "  When Nicholas ordered the offensive to resume, Alexandra wrote, "Our Friend is much put out that Brusilov has not listened to your order to stop the advance - says you were inspired from above to give that order ... and G-d would bless it.  Now he says again useless losses."  Soon after she wrote again: "Your plan so wise [was] approved by our Friend. ... Stick to it."  Two days later, Nicholas ended the offensive for good.  General Vladimir Gurko wrote, "The weariness of the troops had its effect ... but there can be no question that the stoppage of the offensive was premature and founded on orders from Headquarters."
The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.

Albert Einstein

Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Parallels between Rasputin and Lyndon Baines Johnson
« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2015, 03:36:42 PM »
Alexandra and Rasputin did not hat the Brussilov offensive. There is no mention of any halt order in Gurkos or Brussilovs memoirs or most accounts of this offensive. Gurko's memoirs War and Revolution in Russia 1914-1917 are on archive.org. This is mentioned in Nicholas and Alexandra and a few other books but in real life the offensive continued. This looks like a case of blame Alexandra for everything that went wrong again. In her 27 Sept 8 Oct 1916 letter she does implorer Nicholas to stop the attack but Nicolas writes back that the offensive is continueing.

This is what the Austrian official history says on this period in Austria-Hungary's last war Vol 5 pages 130-249 and 340-443 which is online at www.comroestudios.com/StanHanna also see the Nicholas and Alexandra movie replies 1634-1635

Vol 5
p175 Russian XXIII men driven forwards with blows from whips"
p207 driven forward with blows
p363 "painfull losses"
385 "costly battles"
P388 Russian artillery were firing on their own trenches to force the infantry to advance
p413 Russian guards 17 failed assaults
p415 At Stavka mainly the Tsar opposes continuation do to large casualties and small results on 22 Sep/5 oct 1916 which after reading the following sounds like a good idea but General Gurko wanted to continue the attack and receives permission to do so which he does.

p437reports of refusals to obey ordes and out right mutiny reported in the Russian 4th Rifle Division the 20th Infantry Division and even the Guards.  also note Brussilov complains in his memoirs about the VII Siberian Corps also having problems. What nobody realized was the Russian army was getting near the point of no return.