Author Topic: Vatican Documents  (Read 20364 times)

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Offline Romanov_Fan19

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Vatican Documents
« on: May 12, 2015, 11:25:13 PM »
anyone know anything about the  Vatican Documents on the Tsars murder

Offline Превед

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Re: Vatican Documents
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2015, 04:14:54 AM »
anyone know anything about the  Vatican Documents on the Tsars murder

You think there are documents saying that the Vatican arranged the murders in Yekaterinburg because they wanted to liberate the Catholic Poles (and Lithuanians and Greek-Catholic Belarussians and Ukrainians) from their horrible Orthodox tyrant?
Or because the Vatican hated anyone allied with their arch-enemy, the Kingdom of Italy?

« Last Edit: May 13, 2015, 04:18:03 AM by Превед »
Березы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и березы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline edubs31

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Re: Vatican Documents
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2015, 11:57:16 AM »
anyone know anything about the  Vatican Documents on the Tsars murder

You think there are documents saying that the Vatican arranged the murders in Yekaterinburg because they wanted to liberate the Catholic Poles (and Lithuanians and Greek-Catholic Belarussians and Ukrainians) from their horrible Orthodox tyrant?
Or because the Vatican hated anyone allied with their arch-enemy, the Kingdom of Italy?



Playing along with this ridiculous conspiracy theory for a moment. Why would the Vatican dare risk the exposing itself as being culpable in the deaths of the Imperial Family and helping to launch, if inadvertently, an anti-religious Soviet Republic? Can you imagine the spot they'd be in if anyone ever found out? Child molestation scandals would be a Page Two story by comparison.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right...

Offline TimM

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Re: Vatican Documents
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2015, 07:31:16 PM »
Quote
You think there are documents saying that the Vatican arranged the murders in Yekaterinburg because they wanted to liberate the Catholic Poles (and Lithuanians and Greek-Catholic Belarussians and Ukrainians) from their horrible Orthodox tyrant?
Or because the Vatican hated anyone allied with their arch-enemy, the Kingdom of Italy?

Yeah, the Vatican arranged it all.  JFK found out about it, and that's why they had him killed on November 22, 1963. 

Elvis also found out about it, however, he outwitted them and faked his death on August 16, 1977.  He's been in hiding for the last 38 years.

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Re: Vatican Documents
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2015, 08:40:39 PM »
This one is so ridiculous and obscure I can't even begin to find references to any such documents.  This one must be nothing more than silly rumor

Offline Превед

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Re: Vatican Documents
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2015, 06:18:39 AM »
Playing along with this ridiculous conspiracy theory for a moment. Why would the Vatican dare risk the exposing itself as being culpable in the deaths of the Imperial Family and helping to launch, if inadvertently, an anti-religious Soviet Republic? Can you imagine the spot they'd be in if anyone ever found out? Child molestation scandals would be a Page Two story by comparison.

Of course it's as ridiculous as men in skirts. Just because an organisation is old and secretive doesn't mean that it's involved in everything sinister going on in the world. But I don't think people would have raised an eyelid after the horrors of WW1 if they found out that the Vatican had played some sinister role in the Russian Revolution. At that time all Protestants (and secular, pro-unification Italians, e.g. Mussolini) believed the Papacy to be a sinister power. The Norwegian Constitution of 1814 banned all Jesuits from entering the realm. Appeals to abolish it did not receive a 2/3 majority in parliament in the inter-war years. It was not lifted untill Norway was obliged to do so by joining international human rights organisations after WW2.

BTW I think the very fact that the Catholic Church is surviving the child abuse scandals these days is enough proof that people don't care and will accept almost anything. If I was a Catholic I could never accept that the Church continued in its present form after such a horrendous breach of trust. To continue as a humble religious relief organisation, i.e. good Samaritans, yes, but not as an hierarchical organisation preaching and claiming to be right about anything.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2015, 06:24:32 AM by Превед »
Березы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и березы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline TimM

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Re: Vatican Documents
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2015, 12:05:14 PM »
The idea that the Vatican played any role in the final fates of Nicholas II and his family is pure rubbish.  

Someone has seen the Da Vinci Code too many times, I think.

Offline Romanov_Fan19

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Re: Vatican Documents
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2015, 08:02:17 PM »
it was in an article   that's all 

Offline edubs31

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Re: Vatican Documents
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2015, 10:28:43 PM »
Quote
Of course it's as ridiculous as men in skirts. Just because an organisation is old and secretive doesn't mean that it's involved in everything sinister going on in the world. But I don't think people would have raised an eyelid after the horrors of WW1 if they found out that the Vatican had played some sinister role in the Russian Revolution. At that time all Protestants (and secular, pro-unification Italians, e.g. Mussolini) believed the Papacy to be a sinister power. The Norwegian Constitution of 1814 banned all Jesuits from entering the realm. Appeals to abolish it did not receive a 2/3 majority in parliament in the inter-war years. It was not lifted untill Norway was obliged to do so by joining international human rights organisations after WW2.

Fair points, but we really don't have precedent. In World War II the Catholic Church was greatly persecuted against, in part, for its hostility toward Nazism. They were on the right side of history in the 30s and 40s so it stands to reason they may also have been in the 10s and 20s during the rise of Bolshevism, yes?

Besides the Church never would have gotten away with such crimes in the US. J. Edgar Hoover would have destroyed them.

Quote
BTW I think the very fact that the Catholic Church is surviving the child abuse scandals these days is enough proof that people don't care and will accept almost anything.

Well except for the fact that one could argue the papacy was all but forced to elect Francis. Arguably the most liberal/progressive pope in history at a time when the church was coming under severe scrutiny for its crimes and negligence.

Quote
If I was a Catholic I could never accept that the Church continued in its present form after such a horrendous breach of trust. To continue as a humble religious relief organisation, i.e. good Samaritans, yes, but not as an hierarchical organisation preaching and claiming to be right about anything.

I don't disagree with you there. But then I'm not Catholic either.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right...

Offline Превед

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Re: Vatican Documents
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2015, 04:55:43 AM »
Besides the Church never would have gotten away with such crimes in the US. J. Edgar Hoover would have destroyed them.

J. Edgar Hoover would have destroyed men in skirts? Hm.......:-)
Березы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и березы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline edubs31

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Re: Vatican Documents
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2015, 01:09:04 AM »
Besides the Church never would have gotten away with such crimes in the US. J. Edgar Hoover would have destroyed them.

J. Edgar Hoover would have destroyed men in skirts? Hm.......:-)

On the job he was single-minded and vigilant. Behind closed doors...not so much.

Hoover despised Bolhevism and the perceived Communist threat to the United States. He managed to intimidate Presidents. The Catholic Church of the US wouldnt have stood little chance against his attacks if they were perceived to have aided the rise of Communism and complicit in the killings of the Romanovs. He made a huge fuss about the Lindbergh baby. Stands to reason he might have done the same for the high profile victims of the Red Terror.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right...

Offline Превед

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Re: Vatican Documents
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2015, 11:55:44 AM »
Hoover despised Bolhevism and the perceived Communist threat to the United States. He managed to intimidate Presidents. The Catholic Church of the US wouldnt have stood little chance against his attacks if they were perceived to have aided the rise of Communism and complicit in the killings of the Romanovs. He made a huge fuss about the Lindbergh baby. Stands to reason he might have done the same for the high profile victims of the Red Terror.

I very much doubt it. The Lindbergh baby and its parents were American citizens. NAOTMAA were not.

It is of course quite absurd to debate whether the Catholic Church would have aided the rise of an atheist creed like Communism, especially in a context where it was not about liberating Catholics from suppression at the hands of an officially Orthodox state, but I can imagine an American equivalent of the German Kulturkampf if the Catholic Church had not accepted democracy, nationalism, republicanism and pluralism in the late 19th century, but continued to propagate such anti-American ideas as monarchism and the divine right of kings as its sole, official theology. The same would have happened if the Church had not accepted capitalism, but propagated some paternalistic, communalistic, pseudo-feudal Socialism.
Березы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и березы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline edubs31

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Re: Vatican Documents
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2015, 07:15:26 PM »
Quote
I very much doubt it. The Lindbergh baby and its parents were American citizens. NAOTMAA were not.

He would have used it as an excuse to rout out the radical elements within the Church. Not out of sympathy for the IF or for Russian citizens in general, but under the guise of protecting the citizens of the United States from the growing communist threat.

Quote
It is of course quite absurd to debate whether the Catholic Church would have aided the rise of an atheist creed like Communism, especially in a context where it was not about liberating Catholics from suppression at the hands of an officially Orthodox state, but I can imagine an American equivalent of the German Kulturkampf if the Catholic Church had not accepted democracy, nationalism, republicanism and pluralism in the late 19th century, but continued to propagate such anti-American ideas as monarchism and the divine right of kings as its sole, official theology. The same would have happened if the Church had not accepted capitalism, but propagated some paternalistic, communalistic, pseudo-feudal Socialism.

Well sure. As it was Catholicism was hardly regarded as having divinity by the American masses at large. Al Smith, the first Catholic Presidential candidate was drubbed in the election of 1928, and JFK faced considerable opposition on account of his religious faith 32-years later (John Kerry lost in 2004 as well for what it's worth). No more than 25% of Americans are Catholic. Greatly outnumbered by Protestants. As a religious minority in a country with no state sponsored religion Catholicism could have been vulnerable.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right...

Offline Превед

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Re: Vatican Documents
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2015, 08:31:15 AM »
He would have used it as an excuse to rout out the radical elements within the Church. Not out of sympathy for the IF or for Russian citizens in general, but under the guise of protecting the citizens of the United States from the growing communist threat.

It is actually food for thought to consider when the US went from being positively hostile to monarchs (including the Pope), equating monarchs with despots and likely to be won over by anti-monarchist rhetoric to the period when Americans started to equate monarchs with the established capitalist order. Perhaps around WW1 / the Russian Revolution?

Березы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и березы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline Greenowl

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Re: Vatican Documents
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2015, 11:08:58 AM »
We don't actually have any information about what was contained in the article that referred to the Vatican documents. I agree it is highly unlikely (indeed impossible) that the Vatican was involved in the murders BUT what strikes me is that the Vatican has a huge archive that contains a great deal of material such as one of the last letters written by Mary Queen of Scots, documents related to the case of Galileo, the excommunication of Martin Luther, the Bull from members of the English Parliament to Pope Clement VII on the annulment of Henry VIII’s marriage and a great deal of material related to the Habsburgs. It is therefore not inconceivable that someone deposited information relating to the murders in the Vatican Archives. The main point against this theory is that the documents in the Vatican archives are usually released to researchers after 75 years and obviously nothing related to the Romanovs has been released, unless of course the Vatican has another, even more secret, archive!!!