Author Topic: Vatican Documents  (Read 19981 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline edubs31

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 993
    • View Profile
Re: Vatican Documents
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2015, 05:59:11 PM »
He would have used it as an excuse to rout out the radical elements within the Church. Not out of sympathy for the IF or for Russian citizens in general, but under the guise of protecting the citizens of the United States from the growing communist threat.

It is actually food for thought to consider when the US went from being positively hostile to monarchs (including the Pope), equating monarchs with despots and likely to be won over by anti-monarchist rhetoric to the period when Americans started to equate monarchs with the established capitalist order. Perhaps around WW1 / the Russian Revolution?


It's a good question. I get the feeling that Elizabeth II's ascendancy was the clincher. American's have been infatuated and affectionate towards the British royal family since at least that time (1950s), and it reached its highest point during Diana's era (1981-97) in the public spotlight.

I think you're probably correct about WWI as the turning point, but it's what happened to Russia and Germany after their last monarchs fell from power (1917/18) that convinced many that some societies were simply better off as royal subjects rather than a radical citizenry. As the saying goes, "At least Mussolini keeps the trains running on time." By the same token, "At least with the Tsar you had no Communism, and at least with the Kaiser you had no Nazis."

Quote
We don't actually have any information about what was contained in the article that referred to the Vatican documents. I agree it is highly unlikely (indeed impossible) that the Vatican was involved in the murders BUT what strikes me is that the Vatican has a huge archive that contains a great deal of material such as one of the last letters written by Mary Queen of Scots, documents related to the case of Galileo, the excommunication of Martin Luther, the Bull from members of the English Parliament to Pope Clement VII on the annulment of Henry VIII’s marriage and a great deal of material related to the Habsburgs. It is therefore not inconceivable that someone deposited information relating to the murders in the Vatican Archives. The main point against this theory is that the documents in the Vatican archives are usually released to researchers after 75 years and obviously nothing related to the Romanovs has been released, unless of course the Vatican has another, even more secret, archive!!!

Good post Greenowl. Double-secret probation!
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right...

Offline Pegschalet

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 92
    • View Profile
Re: Vatican Documents
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2015, 12:56:10 AM »
I guess I read the first post from Romanov fan differently than everyone else.  I thought he asked if there were any documents at the Vatican regarding the Tsar's murder not that Catholics murdered the Pope.

Anyways some interesting tidbits.  Shortly after the Tsar was killed an American priest named Father Edmund Walsh was traveling around Russia and asking quite a few questions.

The Georgetown University School of Foreign Service is named after him.  He was a very interesting man.

In addition to biographies on him, he also is a minor character in a novel, "The Tsar's Masquerade".

Offline Greenowl

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 574
    • View Profile
Re: Vatican Documents
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2015, 04:34:02 AM »
That was my interpretation and understanding too, i.e. that there was a claim that the Vatican Archives contained information pertaining to the murders but NOT that the Vatican or its agents had any hand or role in the tragic events.

Offline Превед

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 933
  • Мой Великий Север
    • View Profile
    • Type Russian Without a Keyboard
Re: Vatican Documents
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2015, 06:27:58 AM »
I guess I read the first post from Romanov fan differently than everyone else.  I thought he asked if there were any documents at the Vatican regarding the Tsar's murder not that Catholics murdered the Pope.

He asked about "the Vatican Documents on the Tsars murder", not "Vatican documents on the Tsar's murder". I think Romanov_Fan's first language is English and he could have meant "the alleged documents...", but of course the use of the definite article is very tricky for for most people with a Slavic first language: I am person from the Russia.... etc :-)

He would have used it as an excuse to rout out the radical elements within the Church. Not out of sympathy for the IF or for Russian citizens in general, but under the guise of protecting the citizens of the United States from the growing communist threat.

It is actually food for thought to consider when the US went from being positively hostile to monarchs (including the Pope), equating monarchs with despots and likely to be won over by anti-monarchist rhetoric to the period when Americans started to equate monarchs with the established capitalist order. Perhaps around WW1 / the Russian Revolution?


It's a good question. I get the feeling that Elizabeth II's ascendancy was the clincher. American's have been infatuated and affectionate towards the British royal family since at least that time (1950s), and it reached its highest point during Diana's era (1981-97) in the public spotlight.

In a nation of immigrants, could it perhaps also have to do with the point when there no longer was a large group of first-generation European immigrants who had experienced reactionary, oppressive monarchism in their homelands (Russian Jews, Italians, Irish, Swedes, pre-1905 Norwegians, Dutch and Germans), but mostly second- and third-generations who viewed their ancestral homeland's monarchies in a more nostalgic light and / or looked to the more progressive forms some of those monarchies had evolved into.

I know for instance that Norwegian (and Swedish) immigrants in the US usually had little sympathy for the reactionary, Swedish Bernadotte dynasty who ruled Norway-Sweden before 1905, because it represented the top of the oppressive, class-based poor-house they were fleeing from. But ever since WW2 Norwegian-Americans in Minnesota etc. have been happy to receive visits from (the national and democratic) post-1905 Norwegian RF. I suppose the same applies to Swedish-Americans too.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2015, 06:51:24 AM by Превед »
Березы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и березы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline Превед

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 933
  • Мой Великий Север
    • View Profile
    • Type Russian Without a Keyboard
Re: Vatican Documents
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2015, 07:14:02 AM »
I guess I read the first post from Romanov fan differently than everyone else.  I thought he asked if there were any documents at the Vatican regarding the Tsar's murder not that Catholics murdered the Pope.

He asked about "the Vatican Documents on the Tsars murder", not "Vatican documents on the Tsar's murder". I think Romanov_Fan's first language is English and he could have meant "the alleged documents...", but of course the use of the definite article is very tricky for for most people with a Slavic first language: I am person from the Russia.... etc :-)

Ah, LOL, now I see I misread you!
Березы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и березы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline TimM

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1816
    • View Profile
    • Rex and Hannah Chronicles Wikia
Re: Vatican Documents
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2015, 05:27:20 AM »
Quote
In addition to biographies on him, he also is a minor character in a novel, "The Tsar's Masquerade".

Is this novel about another alleged escape.