Author Topic: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED  (Read 38002 times)

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Online GDSophie

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Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
« Reply #135 on: October 08, 2017, 12:57:50 PM »
I have given up hope that Alexei and Marie will ever be buried. The ROC cares nothing for them and the only people who have standing in this matter would not be listened to.

Didn't the government bury the others without the consent of the Church? They could do that again.

Or wait until Kyril is dead.
'Give my love to all who remember me' - Olga Nikolaevna

Offline Jeremiah

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Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
« Reply #136 on: October 08, 2017, 03:16:42 PM »
God will no way let his beloved children like this. Everything will work out fine very soon. The Church is not confined into any individuals. The Church is also the body and the voice of the people. But above everything is the Body of Christ Himself. Soon everything will be settled.

This is not a romantic spiritual dream. It has been verified time and again. The children are Holy Martyrs. It is the Church who glorified them as such:

"Vox populi, Vox dei".

Offline Превед

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Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
« Reply #137 on: October 08, 2017, 03:37:19 PM »
Is the delay perhaps due to God and Christ being too busy attending to the many weak, downtrodden and persecuted in today's Russia?
Березы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и березы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline Jeremiah

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Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
« Reply #138 on: October 08, 2017, 05:29:03 PM »
I just wish that the life and death of Nicholas and his family -together with their spiritual qualities- could at least inspire us in a way, so as not to view them only as historical and tragical figures. I’m wondering what would their answer be to this question.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2017, 05:32:17 PM by Jeremiah »

Offline Lochlanach

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Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
« Reply #139 on: October 14, 2017, 07:12:21 AM »
Lisa : The church will almost certainly officially recognise Alexei and Marie and re-unite them with the rest of the family in an elaborate ceremony, maybe July 2018,  and we will all breathe a sigh of relief .. but we won't soon forget that the Church kept Alexei and Marie in a box on a shelf 'in storage' for a decade, and this after a scientific study had already identified them as being the Tsar's children.

Offline Inok Nikolai

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Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
« Reply #140 on: November 21, 2017, 04:54:55 PM »


FYI:

The ROC Bishops' Synod is supposed to examine this question at the Synod Meeting, from Nov. 29 to Dec. 2, 2017.

Вопрос "екатеринбургских останков" обсудят на Архиерейском соборе

17.11.2017 12:39
http://www.blagovest-info.ru/index.php?ss=2&s=3&id=75776
инок Николай

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
« Reply #141 on: November 22, 2017, 07:26:34 PM »
The ROC continues to:

1. Refuse to recognize that the remains which have been scientifically identified as Nicholas and Alexandra's son and their daughter (we assume to be Marie). As a result, the Church has left the remains unburied and unacknowledged.

and

2. Refuse to recognize that the remains which were discovered in 1991 and scientifically identified as Nicholas, Alexandra, and three of their daughters. As a result, the Family were not buried under their Christian names at their funeral.

Offline Lochlanach

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Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
« Reply #142 on: December 07, 2017, 10:58:28 AM »
The ROC continues to:

1. Refuse to recognize that the remains which have been scientifically identified as Nicholas and Alexandra's son and their daughter (we assume to be Marie). As a result, the Church has left the remains unburied and unacknowledged.

and

2. Refuse to recognize that the remains which were discovered in 1991 and scientifically identified as Nicholas, Alexandra, and three of their daughters. As a result, the Family were not buried under their Christian names at their funeral.

The latest news on the subject is ..... the ROC will recognise the remains if 'comprehensive proof' is provided . They are closely involved in the lab investigation - they weren't first time around - and are not in any rush to bring the issue to an end in time for any anniversary (so they say). They want the final say on their authenticity . They are dealing with 'holy relics' and not 'ordinary people' (I beg to differ, but that's another story). They have doubts and many questions that need answering  . They are still questioning how the Tsar can have had such appalling teeth ! Yes , really . Have they not read accounts of his aversion to dentistry and his chain smoking ? Or any accounts of his personal life for that matter ? One wonders .  On the plus side the investigation seems likely to be completed in 2018.








Online GDSophie

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Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
« Reply #143 on: December 07, 2017, 02:10:53 PM »
The ROC continues to:

1. Refuse to recognize that the remains which have been scientifically identified as Nicholas and Alexandra's son and their daughter (we assume to be Marie). As a result, the Church has left the remains unburied and unacknowledged.

and

2. Refuse to recognize that the remains which were discovered in 1991 and scientifically identified as Nicholas, Alexandra, and three of their daughters. As a result, the Family were not buried under their Christian names at their funeral.

The latest news on the subject is ..... the ROC will recognise the remains if 'comprehensive proof' is provided . They are closely involved in the lab investigation - they weren't first time around - and are not in any rush to bring the issue to an end in time for any anniversary (so they say). They want the final say on their authenticity . They are dealing with 'holy relics' and not 'ordinary people' (I beg to differ, but that's another story). They have doubts and many questions that need answering  . They are still questioning how the Tsar can have had such appalling teeth ! Yes , really . Have they not read accounts of his aversion to dentistry and his chain smoking ? Or any accounts of his personal life for that matter ? One wonders .  On the plus side the investigation seems likely to be completed in 2018.

Unfortunately, many people who are made saints are portrayed as 'angels' in their real lives and have to be seen as pure, innocent, individuals. They may have not been 'ordinary' people-no matter how much they wanted to-but they were people. The Church seem to forget that.
'Give my love to all who remember me' - Olga Nikolaevna

Offline Jeremiah

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Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
« Reply #144 on: December 07, 2017, 03:44:22 PM »
When the Church claims that it deals with the remains of no ordinary people, but with the relics of saints, it does not suggest that the saints have not been ordinary people during their earthly life, but rather than now, after they have been glorified by God and the Church, are dealt with as being sacred, holy, saintly. In the context of this, the Church has to be sure that what she gives to the faithful to venerate, that is, to kiss in a pious manner, indeed belongs to a saint, indeed is a holy relic.

Having said that, I must add that I, myself, am convinced beyond any doubt that the Yekaterinburg remains are INDEED those of the IF. My comment only aims to clarify what the statement of the Church means, based on the Orthodox tradition and understanding, regardless of the fact that in this case there shouldn’t be any doubts. But that’s another story, irrelevant to the concept of how does the Church understands the definition of a saint. 

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
« Reply #145 on: December 08, 2017, 01:44:33 AM »
On the question of Nicholas's teeth, is there any possibility that the original investigators mixed up the skulls of the three adult males - Nicholas, Dr Botkin and Ivan Kharitonov? How did they differentiate them - DNA testing on the the skulls themselves?

I'm asking this in order to make sure that the possibility was ruled out at an early stage.

Ann


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Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
« Reply #146 on: December 08, 2017, 10:45:43 AM »
DNA testing confirmed.

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
« Reply #147 on: December 08, 2017, 01:05:11 PM »
Thank you.

Offline Lochlanach

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Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
« Reply #148 on: December 09, 2017, 09:06:20 AM »
The ROC continues to:

1. Refuse to recognize that the remains which have been scientifically identified as Nicholas and Alexandra's son and their daughter (we assume to be Marie). As a result, the Church has left the remains unburied and unacknowledged.

and

2. Refuse to recognize that the remains which were discovered in 1991 and scientifically identified as Nicholas, Alexandra, and three of their daughters. As a result, the Family were not buried under their Christian names at their funeral.

The latest news on the subject is ..... the ROC will recognise the remains if 'comprehensive proof' is provided . They are closely involved in the lab investigation - they weren't first time around - and are not in any rush to bring the issue to an end in time for any anniversary (so they say). They want the final say on their authenticity . They are dealing with 'holy relics' and not 'ordinary people' (I beg to differ, but that's another story). They have doubts and many questions that need answering  . They are still questioning how the Tsar can have had such appalling teeth ! Yes , really . Have they not read accounts of his aversion to dentistry and his chain smoking ? Or any accounts of his personal life for that matter ? One wonders .  On the plus side the investigation seems likely to be completed in 2018.

Unfortunately, many people who are made saints are portrayed as 'angels' in their real lives and have to be seen as pure, innocent, individuals. They may have not been 'ordinary' people-no matter how much they wanted to-but they were people. The Church seem to forget that.

I suggest they read the private correspondence between N and A , and OTMA's letters and diaries too . That would be a start , although they may not enjoy what they find. They were flawed and complex people  just like everybody else. But if an institution , or individuals , wish to focus on the spiritual rather than the human , the scientific and the historical ...that's where we part company.

Offline Jeremiah

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Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
« Reply #149 on: December 09, 2017, 10:14:02 AM »
From the Report of the holy Synod commission on the canonization of saints with respect to the martyrdom of the royal family:

"Considering the sum total of the review of the governing and ecclesiastical activity of Russia's last Emperor, the Commission did not find sufficient grounds for his canonization. However, the Orthodox Church has examples of even those Christians who led a sinful life following Baptism but who were added to the ranks of saints. Their canonization took place precisely because they atoned for their sins not only by repentance but by special feats, through martyrdom or asceticism…

The majority of witnesses of the last days of the Romanovs speak of the prisoners of the Tobolsk governor's and the Ekaterinburg Ipatiev's houses as people who suffered and, in spite of all the insults and abuse, led a devout life. In the confined Royal Family, we see people, who sincerely strived to bring out the message of the Gospel in their lives…

It is precisely in the interpretation of this feat of the Royal Family, that the Commission unanimously finds it possible to present the question of adding the names of [the IF] to the ranks of Holy Passionbearers."

Those who are interested, can read the entire text here:
http://www.holy-trinity.org/feasts/nicholas.html