Author Topic: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED  (Read 81981 times)

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Offline lilianna

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Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
« Reply #45 on: October 26, 2015, 01:00:24 PM »
I think so too.

Offline TimM

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Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
« Reply #46 on: October 26, 2015, 05:24:21 PM »
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Obviously they can't Olga or Xenia as their buried in foreign countries

I wonder if the Russian Government has ever thought of asking for their bodies to be sent back to Russia, as the Dowager Empress's was.
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Offline holynewmartyr

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Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
« Reply #47 on: October 26, 2015, 10:21:11 PM »
If they were intact, why did they have to be identified by an icon? I don't know if you ever saw a photo of Elizabeth's body, but believe me, it was pretty hard to recognize and would have been very easy to confuse with another woman's body...

Yes, I have seen the photo of Ella from the Sokolov report, but I have never seen the photo for Barbara--which means the bodies were identifiable when they were recovered.

According to this English translation of the report , it states:

On the breast of the Grand Duchess Elizabeth Feodorovna was an icon of the Saviour with precious stones. To my knowledge, the Emperor prayed before this icon before his abdication, and gave it afterwards to Elizabeth Feodorovna. On the reverse is the inscription 'Palm [Sunday] 13th April 1891'.

It doesn't specifically say that she was identified by the icon, but rather that it was found on her person.

Later on, the report states:

The bodies were displayed to the public and were recognized.

The body of the Grand Duchess Elizabeth Feodorovna: In the cranial cavity, on dissection of the skin, bruises were exposed; in the forehead area [a bruise] the size of a child's palm, and in the region of the left parietal bone [a bruise] the size of an adult's palm. There are bruises in the cellular tissue, the muscles and on the surface of the cranium. The skull bones are intact. A bruise is visible in the aura mater of the parietal area.'

The body of Varvara Yakovleva: 'On dissection of the skin of the head a bruise was found in the region of the right temple, and a second bruise in the occipital and parietal regions. The bones of the skull are intact. There is blood in the sutures. On removal of the cranium a bruise was found under the aura mater in the occipital region . On dissection of the skin a bruise [was foundl in the region of the sternum.

So, if the bodies were mistakenly switched, then it would have to have happened sometime when the bodies were being transported. The bodies must have undergone further corruption to render them indistinguishable.

The best way to clear up all these doubts is to obtain a new DNA sample from the body that rests in the tomb that is identified as that of Saint Elizabeth the New Martyr in the Church of St. Mary Magdalene in Jerusalem.

Considering that approval was given for a sample from Alexander III, a sample from Jerusalem should be only a matter of time.

What an embarrassment it would be for the Russian Orthodox Church, if it turns out that it's not Saint Elizabeth. 
Holy New Martyr Elizabeth, pray for us!

Offline DNAgenie

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Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
« Reply #48 on: October 26, 2015, 10:51:35 PM »
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So, if the bodies were mistakenly switched, then it would have to have happened sometime when the bodies were being transported. The bodies must have undergone further corruption to render them indistinguishable.

The best way to clear up all these doubts is to obtain a new DNA sample from the body that rests in the tomb that is identified as that of Saint Elizabeth the New Martyr in the Church of St. Mary Magdalene in Jerusalem.

Perhaps a DNA sample should also be taken from the body that was identified as Varvara Yakovleva, if her burial place is known, on the off-chance that she was really the Grand Duchess, Elizabeth Feodorovna.

Offline holynewmartyr

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Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
« Reply #49 on: October 26, 2015, 11:55:34 PM »
Perhaps a DNA sample should also be taken from the body that was identified as Varvara Yakovleva, if her burial place is known, on the off-chance that she was really the Grand Duchess, Elizabeth Feodorovna.

Good idea.

The tomb identified as St. Barbara's is on the other side of the iconostasis from the tomb identified as St. Elizabeth's.



     St. Elizabeth            St. Barbara
Holy New Martyr Elizabeth, pray for us!

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
« Reply #50 on: October 27, 2015, 06:20:46 PM »

Perhaps a DNA sample should also be taken from the body that was identified as Varvara Yakovleva, if her burial place is known, on the off-chance that she was really the Grand Duchess, Elizabeth Feodorovna.

Totally agree!

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
« Reply #51 on: October 27, 2015, 06:22:12 PM »

What an embarrassment it would be for the Russian Orthodox Church, if it turns out that it's not Saint Elizabeth. 


Yes, but at least they will have the right answer... If they want it...

Offline Georgiy

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Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
« Reply #52 on: October 29, 2015, 03:51:42 AM »
If it is not the right one, then it is the one beside it - not such a problem, and not I don't think, an embarrassment.

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
« Reply #53 on: October 29, 2015, 07:54:20 AM »
If it is not the right one, then it is the one beside it - not such a problem, and not I don't think, an embarrassment.

Well, there is a right answer (the remains are them) and there is a wrong answer (the remains are someone else's) and there is nothing in between really.. I just hope they accept the right answer and move on and end this nonsense finally...

Offline holynewmartyr

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Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
« Reply #54 on: October 29, 2015, 06:02:26 PM »
Here is what Hugo Mayer writes in his biography, Elizabeth: Grand Duchess of Russia about the condition of Ella’s body after it was recovered:

Father Seraphim also told Lady Athlone that the body of the grand duchess,“strange to say was not decomposed at all.” Lady Milford Haven seemingly confirms this, in a passage already quoted in the Epilogue, that later on when he opened her coffin at the convent in Irkutsk, “our Ella’s body was not decayed only dried up.” (Hessian Grand Duchal Archives). Prince Nicholas Kudashev, the last envoy of imperial Russia to China, also happened to see her body at Harbin, where Father Seraphim stopped en route to Beijing. “The Grand Duchess,” he wrote, “lay as if alive, completely unchanged since the day that I met her in Moscow on the way to Beijing, except that on one side of her face was a large bruise from a blow sustained in the fall into the mineshaft.” (Materialy k zhitiyu…, p. 152). General Smolin tells us that her fingers “were stiffened in the sign of the cross.”
Holy New Martyr Elizabeth, pray for us!

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
« Reply #55 on: November 12, 2015, 12:53:50 PM »
Update on case re-opening: http://www.theromanovfamily.com/5062-2/   "Russian Orthodox Church is still not ready to make a final conclusion on the question on the authenticity of the remains of the Romanov family."

Offline edubs31

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Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
« Reply #56 on: November 12, 2015, 01:26:45 PM »
Update on case re-opening: http://www.theromanovfamily.com/5062-2/   "Russian Orthodox Church is still not ready to make a final conclusion on the question on the authenticity of the remains of the Romanov family."

I'm guessing they had a prearranged response to this. Hope & pray that some type of discrepancy appeared in the data - for if it did doubt could continue to be cast no matter how overwhelming the evidence as a whole - and if the results are conclusive then simply ask for more testing to be done...rinse, repeat.
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Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
« Reply #57 on: November 12, 2015, 01:48:01 PM »

I'm guessing they had a prearranged response to this. Hope & pray that some type of discrepancy appeared in the data - for if it did doubt could continue to be cast no matter how overwhelming the evidence as a whole - and if the results are conclusive then simply ask for more testing to be done...rinse, repeat.

well eventually they will have to accept the remains as authentic, but it will open a huge pandora's box, because they were not buried as saints, so it will probably mean that they have to all be exhumed and reburied as saints... plus they have to take relics from them, so either way they have to be exhumed...  Also, it won't look that good that all these years ROC claimed remainds were not them, and the followers believed them when they cast doubts on the science, etc, and suddenly they have to admit that they were wrong all along... This can't be an easy thing to do for them.. PR nightmare even... That's just my theory...

Offline DNAgenie

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Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
« Reply #58 on: November 12, 2015, 08:35:07 PM »
The recent statement sounds to me as though the original DNA test results have been confirmed, but the new tests and comparisons which the church requested have not yet been completed. I did not think they could be in the time, and I never expected that first deadline to be met so I am not surprised.

Offline holynewmartyr

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Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
« Reply #59 on: November 12, 2015, 10:40:13 PM »
Update on case re-opening: http://www.theromanovfamily.com/5062-2/   "Russian Orthodox Church is still not ready to make a final conclusion on the question on the authenticity of the remains of the Romanov family."

I hope that the Russian Church's desire for further testing will lead to a sample from St. Elizabeth's body in Jerusalem. One cannot consider the testing complete without doing a comparative DNA analysis of the remains between sisters Alexandra and Elizabeth.
Holy New Martyr Elizabeth, pray for us!