Author Topic: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Others  (Read 67491 times)

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Offline AGRBear

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Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Others
« on: January 23, 2005, 07:38:39 PM »
Memory, of all the powers of the mind, is the most fragile and can be easily broken into shards that reflect different images than the original.

So, that said,  let's dig into the memories of Yurovsky and others given to us in testimony about  the night of 16 /17 July 1918 and the buriels of the eleven.  And the buriel of the two other bodies not yet found must be talked about, also.

Lacher's last words about the event  were:  "I served the Bolsheviks well.  I keep my silence."*  He spoke these words in Anna Anderson's trial in the 1960s.

Even in 1960, when the world knew Nicholas II and the others were dead,  he continued his silence.  Why?  Was there still something the world didn't know?

Over and over I have speculated that something happen that night in the Impatiev House which we still do not know.  Something that Lacher, who at the age of 80, continued to be proud of the fact he had not revealed.

Speculation can range from one extreme [all were rescued], to the buriel place -- not yet known at that time-- to the missing of two bodies to  a mere embarsement of how poorly they had carried out the executions.

There is no need to try and convince me that we are suppose to believe everything told to us by Yurovsky, CHEKA, Soviet Urals, Moscow Soviets, communists, GPU or KGB.  This isn't why this thread has been created.

So let me start.

I was just reading PAVEL MEDVEDEV'S TESTIMONY given  21-22 Feb 1919 found pps. 346-351 in  Steinberg and Khrustalev's book THE FALL OF THE ROMANOVS.  He voiced several things of interest.  One being that he was assigned to clean up and when he and the others were done about 3 o'clock in the morning, Yurovsky went to his office and Medvedev went  home....   According to King and Wilson, evidence told them that Yurovsky and Lacher were on the truck as it left the Impatiev grounds at 3 o'clock  p. 314.

----
NOTES:

* p. 516 King and Wilson's book THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS

-----

If most of you think this is a wasted effort,  I assume the thread will just fade away.

If you have questions like I do,  let's see what we discover and talk about it.

Why did Lacher say he went home instead of joining the others on the trip to the mines in those early morning hours?

AGRBear

PS  Questions and anwers about the grave are found over on this thread:
http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=lastdays;action=display;num=1106871065
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2005, 03:34:10 PM »
I for one do not think such speculations are a waste of time. Rather, it is in line with the type of thinking in the physical sciences wherein reasonable theories and questions can be adopted and proven or not.

To me, as stated earlier, the massive amount of emotion, hysteria, confusion, etc when a slaughter is conducted overwhelms the participants, and each person involved will have a different take. Add to that the credibility of the main characters...violent revolutionary killers, etc....people of whom there is no particular reason to take them at their words. some of their testimonies bear out with science, but that doesn't mean the rest is factual in my opinion.

Consider the massive amount of continuing research, new questions, and new conclusions arising from Custer's Last Stand and the Battle of the Alamo. New views are interesting.
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Offline Elisabeth

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2005, 03:52:22 PM »
Quote
I was just reading PAVEL MEDVEDEV'S TESTIMONY given  21-22 Feb 1919 found pps. 346-351 in  Steinberg and Khrustalev's book THE FALL OF THE ROMANOVS.  He voiced several things of interest.  One being that he was assigned to clean up and when he and the others were done about 3 o'clock in the morning, Yurovsky went to his office and Medvedev went  home....   According to King and Wilson, evidence told them that Yurovsky and Lacher were on the truck as it left the Impatiev grounds at 3 o'clock  p. 314.

----
NOTES:

* p. 516 King and Wilson's book THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS

-----

If most of you think this is a wasted effort,  I assume the thread will just fade away.

If you have questions like I do,  let's see what we discover and talk about it.

Why did Lacher say he went home instead of joining the others on the trip to the mines in those early morning hours?

AGRBear


I think Lacher probably had a lot to hide, AGRBear. As for the discrepancy in testimony between Yurovsky and Medvedev - Medvedev saying Yurovsky was at the house at 3 a.m., Yurovsky saying he was going to the Four Brothers - as we know in fact he was - remember that there had recently been a switch to daylight savings time under the Soviets. The clock had been moved forward two hours. So this kind of confusion over the time is actually quite common in the testimonies of the various witnesses.  
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Offline Abby

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2005, 04:01:44 PM »
Yeah, some of the books I read have said the murder took place at midnight and some say 2 am..

Offline Georgiy

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2005, 04:05:38 PM »
That could be because of the confusion over daylight savings which had just been introduced...

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2005, 06:47:13 PM »
The time differences is interesting.  Thanks,  I had forgotten about the daylight savings time....

There is, also,  differences regarding Yurovsky's and Lacher's statement about who went where.... after the clean-up.  Yurvosky said Lacher was with  him and the others who took the truck to the mine.  Lacher's stated that he didn't go to the mine, he went "home to his detachment".

To me,  that is a HUGE contradition.  Seems like to me Lacher would remember going to the mine.

Here is what he said:  " ...Liukhanov...was the chauffeur.  Pyotr Yermakov and the other member of the Extraordinary Commission climbed into the truck and took the corpses away.  I do not know what direction they went or what they did with the corpses.  We washed off the blood in the room and the courtyard and put everything in order.  By 3 o'clock in the morning it was all over, and Yurovsky went to his office, and I went home to the detachment."  p. 350  THE FALL OF THE ROMANOVS by Stenberg and Krustalev.

He is telling us that he, Lacher, AND, Yurovsky were not on the truck when it left.  

This statement was in Feb. of 1919, just seven months after the event.  I'd say it must have been very fresh in his memory.
AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline Abby

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2005, 07:49:17 PM »
If Yurovsky said that Lacher went with him to the mine and Lacher said he didn't, I think it was probably Yurovsky who mistook him for someone else.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2005, 09:26:53 AM »
Lacher, also, said that the truck left without him and Yurovsky who went to his office ???

Yurovsky tells us he was on the truck and most people use his testimony for the evidence of what occured from that point forward with the bodies of the eleven.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2005, 11:24:59 PM »
Quote
The time differences is interesting.  Thanks,  I had forgotten about the daylight savings time....

There is, also,  differences regarding Yurovsky's and Lacher's statement about who went where.... after the clean-up.  Yurvosky said Lacher was with  him and the others who took the truck to the mine.  Lacher's stated that he didn't go to the mine, he went "home to his detachment".

To me,  that is a HUGE contradition.  Seems like to me Lacher would remember going to the mine.

Here is what he said:  " ...Liukhanov...was the chauffeur.  Pyotr Yermakov and the other member of the Extraordinary Commission climbed into the truck and took the corpses away.  I do not know what direction they went or what they did with the corpses.  We washed off the blood in the room and the courtyard and put everything in order.  By 3 o'clock in the morning it was all over, and Yurovsky went to his office, and I went home to the detachment."  p. 350  THE FALL OF THE ROMANOVS by Stenberg and Krustalev.

He is telling us that he, Lacher, AND, Yurovsky were not on the truck when it left.  

This statement was in Feb. of 1919, just seven months after the event.  I'd say it must have been very fresh in his memory.
AGRBear


King and Wilson note that Lacher's testimonies over the years were often contradictory. Charitably, we can say he was not a reliable witness. More objectively, he frequently lied. For example at one of AA's trials, he claimed to have not been part of the execution squad, when multiple sources place him there.

As to "going home to his detachment", there are a couple of problems with this statement. First off, "home" at the time was the Ipatiev House! Going home? Makes no sense.  He took part in the murder in the Ipatiev House, then went home to the Ipatieiv House? "His detachment"? He was a prisoner of war! He was part of a detachment, if you want to call it that - a group of factory workers who were assigned to "guard" the Imperial Family.

Lacher clearly knew about the murders, having participated in them. Lacher clearly knew that two bodies were missing - it was on this point that he "served the Bolsheviks well".

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2005, 01:31:37 PM »
Was his contradictions due to his being captured by the Whites  in July or was it Aug. of  1918 which means this testimony was given before he could match notes with Yurovsky who gave his first statement years later?  Yurovsky gave his second statement in 1934 and this is the one most commonly used?  Why?  Is this because the second statement fills in many of the missing pieces which the first statement didn't?  I don't know.  I've never seen his first statement.  Anyone know where I can find a copy of his first statement which has been translated into English?

As for the "going home", I don't know  where it was.

Anyway,    according to his first testimony, he tells us he and Yurovsky were not on the truck when it left at 3 o'clock....  And, we're suppose to believe Yurovsky and not Lacher because Lacher "lied" and Yurovsky did not lie....

So,  who else told us that Lacher was on the truck other than Yurovsky?

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline Elisabeth

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2005, 01:46:26 PM »
Yurovsky's first statement, the 1920 Yurovsky Note, is given in full in English in Mark Steinberg and Vladimir M. Khrustalev's The Fall of the Romanovs, pp. 351-356. As far as I can tell from my readings of various sources, historians use it interchangeably with the 1934 Note.

Additionally, there is a letter to the Museum of the Revolution that Yurovsky wrote in 1928, when handing over the revolvers he and Nikulin had used to kill the tsar and members of his family. This Note is reproduced in Radzinsky's The Last Tsar, p. 373. (The 1928 Note and the handover of the guns were obviously intended to commemorate the 10th anniversary of the murders.)

Yurovsky obviously didn't go to pains to "match" these various statements with those of other participants and witnesses, as evidenced by the many small discrepancies between his testimonies and those of his "colleagues" in murder. He obviously assumed his word, as the leader of the detachment that killed the imperial family, would always be the last word.
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2005, 02:04:48 PM »
To make it easier for people, let me give the URL that the 1 Feb. 1934 statement of Yurovsky can be found:

http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/yurovmurder.html

Thanks Elisabeth for the data on Yurovsky's first statement.
Quote
.... [in part]...
Yurovsky's first statement, the 1920 Yurovsky Note, is given in full in English in Mark Steinberg and Vladimir M. Khrustalev's The Fall of the Romanovs, pp. 351-356. As far as I can tell from my readings of various sources, historians use it interchangeably with the 1934 Note.
....


I have this book.  And, there is is.  Well, I'll be darn.  Again, thanks.

Then Elisabeth voiced:
Quote
....[in part]....
Yurovsky obviously didn't go to pains to "match" these various statements with those of other participants and witnesses, as evidenced by the many small discrepancies between his testimonies and those of his "colleagues" in murder. He obviously assumed his word, as the leader of the detachment that killed the imperial family, would always be the last word.


But he did care or else why would he have been looking through Sokolov's book.   This is what he tells us in his 1934 testimony:

Yurovsky:  "About two months ago, I was looking through the book by Sokolov, the preliminary investigator of the extremely important cases under Kolchak, when I saw a photo of those stacked ties. It was mentioned that the ties had been laid there to let a truck pass. So, having dug up the entire area, they did not think to look under the ties."

Does anyone know what photo  Yurovsky is referring?

Who is digging?  Is he talking about the Whites or someone later?

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Elisabeth

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2005, 02:29:00 PM »
Quote

Then Elisabeth voiced:

But he did care or else why would he have been looking through Sokolov's book.   This is what he tells us in his 1934 testimony:

Yurovsky:  "About two months ago, I was looking through the book by Sokolov, the preliminary investigator of the extremely important cases under Kolchak, when I saw a photo of those stacked ties. It was mentioned that the ties had been laid there to let a truck pass. So, having dug up the entire area, they did not think to look under the ties."

Does anyone know what photo  Yurovsky is referring?

AGRBear


The photo is given in Sokolov's full, published report. Caption: "Mostik, habrosannyi bol'shevikami na koptiakovskoi doroge, gde zastrial gruzovoi avtomobil', dostavivshii trupy tsarskoi sem'i k rudinky." It's also reproduced in the abridged Russian text of that report (which I own). It's photo No. 76, for those who have a scanner and might want to share the image with us...

As for Yurovsky, of course he was curious about Sokolov's report. All murderers are curious about police investigations into their crimes. I imagine he read the report with great excitement, ultimately very happy to discover that he'd outfoxed the best investigator the Whites could produce.
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2005, 02:35:16 PM »
Thanks, again, Elisabeth.  

When reading Yurovsky 1920 statement he talks about the "commandant" giving orders.  It is suggested he was telling the story as if he was a third person and calls himself "commandant".
Why would he do such a thing?  

Oooooh NO.  Don't tell me, I now, have to ask:  Was there someone else, someone of a higher rank, who was giving Yurovsky orders that night in the Impatiev House ???

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Elisabeth

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2005, 02:44:17 PM »
Quote
Thanks, again, Elisabeth.  

When reading Yurovsky 1920 statement he talks about the "commandant" giving orders.  It is suggested he was telling the story as if he was a third person and calls himself "commandant".
Why would he do such a thing?  

Oooooh NO.  Don't tell me, I now, have to ask:  Was there someone else, someone of a higher rank, who was giving Yurovsky orders that night in the Impatiev House ???

AGRBear


That's not plausible, Bear. Self-important, arrogant people often start referring to themselves in the third person. It's like the royal "we" as in "We are not amused." The public persona is like an entity that takes on its own life. For example, Dan Rather, Mr. Vanity himself, began referring to himself in the third person right around the time he started up with the "What's the frequency, Kenneth?" business...
... I love my poor earth
because I have seen no other

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