Author Topic: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Others  (Read 68270 times)

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Offline etonexile

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #120 on: June 14, 2005, 12:43:57 PM »
Quote
The royality are raised from the moment they are born to be royal and do things like a royal, to sound like a royal, to act like a royal, to know things royal.

Simple things such siting and eating  at a royal table can quickly separate the royal from the non-royal.  

How a royal treats a personal servent as to a servent who cleans the fireplace....

The lanuage is another quick way of separating royal from non-royal.  There are certain phrases which are in fashion or out of fashion very quickly....

Even the silly little things like what does a royal do with their hands....  during various events of the day....

What to wear in the morning or afternoon, or mid-afternoon, for dinner.....  Even at bedtime...

How to drink from a cup or what one does with a cup.....

Sure, various royal people carry things to extreme or don't act royal at all but we are talking about a child of Alexandra who made sure her children knew what was royal.....

Gee, how did we get on this subject on this thread....  ???

A factory worker, no matter Polish, German, French,  would have to be groomed for a long time to pull off being a royal,  I think.  Because,  such royal stuff needs to be natural, without thought and just flow like water from a faucet.

AGRBear


...and yet....FS/AA was able to pull off this royalty "trick"...from what we know....Anyone can learn anything....if they are highly motivated....and surround themselves with the right...useful...people....FS/AA was very highly motivated from what we know of her....she had NOTHING else in her sad little life except this AN charade....NOTHING....

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #121 on: June 14, 2005, 07:14:50 PM »
Do you think she did this "pulling off" all on her own or do you think she had help?  If you think she had help, whom do you think helped her?

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline etonexile

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #122 on: June 15, 2005, 09:47:26 AM »
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Do you think she did this "pulling off" all on her own or do you think she had help?  If you think she had help, whom do you think helped her?

AGRBear


I've spent more than a few years in the world of film and theatre....I think FS/AA was what's known as a "quick study"...she picked up what she wanted and needed from where ever and whoever...and again...I don't think she was a sly and cunning con-artist...I think she was mad...and more than likely believed she was someone of impotance....One can be insane...and intelligent...

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #123 on: June 15, 2005, 11:11:10 AM »
As time passed,  I can see  this occuring but what about those early days and years.....?

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline etonexile

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #124 on: June 15, 2005, 05:19:36 PM »
There again the quick study...she would have been like a sponge....pulling in attitudes from plays,films,people of different social strati she might meet....everywhere and anywhere...Remember...she actually "BELIEVED" she was this GD...AN....at least I don't think she was putting people on.....

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #125 on: June 30, 2005, 10:29:27 AM »
Over on another thread the question was asked about where one could find the source/sources about Ermakov being drunk on the night of 16 /17 July 1918.

I found the following:

Quote
I think Pavel Medvedev was the first of the group of executioners who was interviewed by the Whites from 21-22 Feb. 1919.  He stated he wasn't part of the shooting because he had been sent out of the room.  

He doesn't  mention Ermakov [Yermakov] being drunk.

However, there is mention that his wife Marina gave testimony of 9-10 Nov 1918 and told the Whites that her husband had been one of the shooters.  Her testimony is in the Houghron Lirary, Harvard U. in the Sokolov Archies, vol 1, doc. 97.  I have never seen her testimony and do not know if she mention Ermakov.

Does Yurovsky mention Ermakov as being drunk?  I have his 1920 testimony.....  He doesn't mention Ermakov being drunk, only that he had failed in bringing "the car" on time:

>>...The car's late arrival caused the commandant to doubt Ye-v's [Yermakov's] thoroughness, and the comm. decided to stay with the whole operation to the end.<< p. 353  THE FALL OF THE ROMANOVS by Steinberg and Khrustalev.

What about Yurovsky's second testimony on 1 Feb 1934?
Just said p. 362 that  >>...Flipp {Goloschekin] summoned Yermakov, severely reprimannded him, and sent him to dig up the corpses.<<

No menntion of Ermakov being drunk in Yurovsky's second testimony.

King and Wilson's book THE FATE OF THE ROMANOV tells us:
p. 301 >>Yurovsky later related what had transpired...An arguement ensued carried on by a noticably inebriated Ermakov, before Lynukharrow could finally get the keys away from him and proceed to the Ipatiev House."<<  

They tell us the source was Yurovsky, unpublished memoris, 1922.

According to   Edward Radzinsky  Ermakov wrote a autobiography.  Radzinsky's chapter called "My Guest" and tells us p. 401-3  "...I understand he was there but" he chuckled--"he was drunk!" and 414-15  "While Ermakov was passed out, they must have heard.... those moans from under the tarpaulin."

p. 317 >>...Yurovsky turned to Ermakov and asked if he had brought all of the necessary equipment to dig a proper grave.  Still drunk, Ermakov could only mumble apologetically..."

p. 321  >>Yurovsky and Ermakov continued their futile search.  Drunk and confused, Ermakov "could not find the spot" and Yurovsky "weary and angry" returned to the clearing...."

Still looking but it's late and if I can, tomorrow, will see what else I can find.

AGRBear




[to be continued]

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Inquiring_Mind

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #126 on: June 30, 2005, 06:32:54 PM »
Bear,

In "Dead Men Do Tell Tales" it says when the archives of Moscow's Museum of the October Revolution were finally opened in the late 1980's there were signed eyewitness reports by Yurovsky and Ermakov plus a 1964 tape recording by Nikulin.

In this book, Maples compared Ermakov , a drunken liar, to Nikulin who was a sober, cold blooded young killer at the time of the assassinations. ( His words)

Although Nikulin made the tape, he refused to discuss details saying.."There is no need to savor it. Let it remain with us. Let it depart with us.".

Asked about the tale of "Anastasia" he said " They all perished".
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Inquiring_Mind »
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #127 on: July 01, 2005, 11:07:09 AM »
Does Maples present any sources about Ermakov being drunk that night, or, do we just have Yurovsky's unpublished words for it?

Gosh, this is an interesting question.

Is it possible that Yurovsky  wanted Ermakov's character to be tainted because Ermakov's story was different  or because Ermakov claimed to be the one who shot Nicholas II?

Do we really know if  Ermakov was an alcoholic before the exection? Do we really known if he was even after the execution? 

I'm off to find some more books which might have something more about Ermakov and his state of soberness or drunkeness that eventful night.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #128 on: July 01, 2005, 11:22:02 AM »
Dug out Massie's THE ROMANOVS, THE FINAL CHAPTER pps. 20-21.

A NY jouralist Richard Halliburton inteviewed Ermkaov in 1935.  The reporter thought Ermkaov was dying of throat cancer and  believed Ermakov was finally telling the truth.  

Ermakov to jouralist to NY newspaper:  "We built a funeral pyre of cut logs big enough to hold the bodies two deep.  We poured five tins of gasoline over the corpses... set logs afire... I stood by to see that not one fingernail or fragment of bone remained unconsumed..... I put the tins of ashes in the wagon...ordered the driver to take me back toward the high road.... I pitched the ashes into the air--and the wind caught them like dust and carried them out across the woods...."

Evidently Ermakov was faking his near death experience and  lived another seventeen years and often spoke about the execution and how he was the one who shot and killed Nicholas II with his Mauser.

Nothing about Ermakov and booze.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #129 on: July 01, 2005, 11:43:49 AM »
Back to THE FALL OF THE ROMANOVS by Steinberg and Khrustalev who spelled Ermakov's name Yermakov tell us on p. 393:
>>Yermakov, Pyotr Zakarovich (1884-1952).  Former factory clerk...Bolsevik involved in terrorist acts an "expropriations" in 1905.  Close to Filipp Goloschekin....After the October Revolution became the Upper Isetsk mlitary commissar and took and active role in suppresssing counterrevolution.  Served in the militis (police) during the 1920s.  A director of prision insitutions of the Ural region beginnning in 1927...."

No mention of drunkeness in this book either.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Inquiring_Mind

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #130 on: July 01, 2005, 01:38:30 PM »
I'm at work and the book is at home...I will look later about the source.

I know that Maples discounted most of  Ermakov's testimony though. He was looking at it from a forensic view.
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #131 on: July 01, 2005, 03:03:33 PM »
Thanks Inquiring Mind,  I  am curious to know Maples source/sources.

Back to what I can find.  Next book:

p. 244-5  Nicholas II, Twilight of the Empire by  Lieven:

"In the 1930s Ermakov was frequently turned out to describe the murders, which he did in graphic detail, to summer camps of Pioneers, the Soveit equivalent of scouts and guids.  Presented with flowers, he was held up as a eroic model for Russian youth."

Talks about some of his men who were witing for them in the woods had been drinking but no mention of Ermakov being drunk.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #132 on: July 01, 2005, 03:57:17 PM »
Wilson and King's book FATE OF THE ROMANOVS P. 20 tells us that Ermakov left three accounts....

p. 25
"A few of those who have left accounts do indeed fit the emigre portrait of the drunken,  barbaric Bolshsevik, most notable Peter Ermakov."

p. 302

On the eventful nght, and King and Wilson tells us what Yurovsky said:  

>>Only Ermkov "rambling drunkenly and armed to the teeth...<<

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Inquiring_Mind

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #133 on: July 01, 2005, 04:23:32 PM »
Maples takes the info from Hallibuton's interview of Ermakov and then compares it to the "Yurovsky note" . He does this to compare these testimonies to the forensic evidence.

He uses Edvard Radzinsky's "The Last Tsar" for his source of info on the Yurovsky note.  Maples says Ermakov was apparently drunk throughout the assassinations....but I have "The Last Tsar" and I haven't been able to find that statement or who said it.
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Offline Inquiring_Mind

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #134 on: July 01, 2005, 04:50:06 PM »
Radzinsky determined that Ermakov was drunk from a statement of an undisclosed guest...I'm not sure if I am suppose to know who this man that  visited him was but he is described as living in Sverdlovsk at the time of the murders and knowing Ermakov....he told Radzinsky that the testimonies were different and conflicting because Ermakov was there but drunk.

Radzinsky also received letters. In one a Mstislav Afanasiev tells him that everyone was drunk. This is heresay though.

So a mystery man told Radzinsky that Ermakov was drunk. This made a light bulb go off in Radzinsky's head and helped expain the wholes in Ermakov's statements.
I chose the road less traveled and now...where the heck am I????