Author Topic: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Others  (Read 67477 times)

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #45 on: April 05, 2005, 03:54:38 PM »
Perhaps, Elisabeth, I wasn't explaining myself about the ashes very well.  I was in a hurry yesterday.

The ashes from the wood were there, of course, and they could have been shoveled into the grave, however, not the two bodies.  Yes, the skin would have burned, the fatty tissue would have melted, leaving a coat of charred 'yuk" [my technical term) but a body that was still intact, a whole body.  The muscles, tendons and bones would have been still one complete charred person.  And, so, the two bodies could not have been shoveled into the grave.   And this is what Sukhuroko testified.  Nor were there just bones left to pile into the grave. This is what Yurovsky testified.  And remember Alexei was about 5' 7" tall and Marie/Anastasia were over 5' tall.  So, these bodies would need to be picked up as whole charred bodies and placed into the grave.

I realize that testimony changes from person to person.  I, also, realize that no two people remember events the same.

If what they tell us is true,  these bodies were buried near  the mass grave.  And, they were not just ashes and bites and pieces of charred remains but entire bodies with complete skeletons. Nor was there mention of acid being poured over them.

Okay, perhaps they didn't want to go into the details and just skimmed over the "yukky"  truth of what happen, that might well be.  But, I don't know.  All I have before me are  testimonies and what words they did say.

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline Elisabeth

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #46 on: April 05, 2005, 04:27:15 PM »
Bear, this is more than "yukky," it's absolutely disgusting. I don't think anyone in their right mind was going to use their bare hands to lift the burnt corpses of Alexei and Anastasia and gently place them into the grave. No, they would have used their shovels or whatever else was handy and pushed and prodded and rolled the bodies into the grave. Ugh! Do you know how disgusting it is to handle a corpse - of any living creature, much less a human being, much less a burnt and disfigured human being? Get a grip!

I think you're reading far too much into some very straightforward, no-nonsense statements. Use your common sense. There are no discrepancies here, only bald statements of fact.
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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #47 on: April 05, 2005, 04:55:19 PM »
Greg wrote a little about the burning and the timeline:
Quote
... [ in part]...
But the bigger issue of the impossibility of even doing any major harm to two bodies-let alone one-in 60-90 minutes (and 90 minutes is the extreme length of time they had even giving them the benefit of the doubt) is something that scientifically is impossible-there just wouldn't have been any major or significant destruction, just some disfiguration, so they would have been left with two fully recognizable corpses, fully articulated, that would simply have had the external epidermal layer charred.  It's impossible that there would have been more damage than that-so investigators would have been seeking nearly complete corpses, not parts of remains or disarticulated corpses.  And that's where the story about the bodies falls down, in my opinion.

Greg King


This is making my tummy churn....

So, let's change the subject.  How about discussing this:  "Would there be a reason the CHEKA would lie about what happen with the two bodies?

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #48 on: April 05, 2005, 05:58:33 PM »
The following appears to be farther evidence about the CHEKA, including Sukhorukov, who could have had reasons to have a "cover-up" story of what happen to the two missing bodies.

Quote

..[in part]...

...You mention a lack of motive, but I see plenty of motive.  First, let's start with the assumption (whether right or wrong, for the sake of argument here) that two bodies were indeed missing when they got to the Koptyaki Forest.  We know Yurovsky sent almost everyone gathered there away from the scene on the pretext of the jewels hidden in clothing.  It is I think equally possible he sent them away because he wanted to narrow the field of witnesses to only those men on whom he could rely.  So, under this hypothesis, whom does Yurovsky lie to?  Not to the few trusted men still there, and we know both he and Ermakov spent the morning of 17 July before a special emergency meeting of the Ural Regional Soviet's Presidium, essentially getting raked over the coals for something-Isai Rodzinsky hints that this was because of "what had happened."  But what had happened?  The murders?  Everyone knew those were coming.  So it had to be something else, something that happened during the murders or immediately after.  I suspect that these uncomfortable interviews concerned the two missing bodies.  Yurovsky doesn't lie to these men-Beloborodov, Goloshchokin, etc.-after all, they're all in this together, with their collective necks hanging out in the wind from having killed everyone aganst Moscow's orders.  He HAS to trust these guys.  But when it comes to Moscow, that's another issue.  He has every reason to lie to Moscow if through his bungling or lack of order two bodies went missing.  What seems to have happened, as far as I'm concerned, is that a few of the principals involved-Ermakov, Yurovsky, Nikulin, Rodzinsky, Sukhorukov, Kudrin-all of these guys have a pow-wow and it's agreed that Moscow can't know they bungled, so they agree to a cover story-that they burnt the missing bodies.  Only this "accepted version" gets considerably tangled as different people tell different versions, from how many were burnt to where and when; all of them only got 1 basic thing in agreement-that bodies were burned.  Which is why I tend to think it's a hasty cover story to protect themselves from Moscow.

Yurovsky certainly wouldn't admit this in his 1920 Note, which he only wrote at the direction of Soviet historian Michael Pokrovsky, and which he knew would be seen by those in power.  So he sticks to the cover story.  Same with his 1934 talk.  But in 1922, when he writes his private memoirs, which he keeps in his family and remain a secret until his son Alexander hands them over to the Soviet Government in the early 1970s, he slips up and says he only tried to burn a single body.  I don't think you can put that down to him being unconcerned about details or the number of victims-having read his 1922 memoir in its entirety, it is very detailed.  Moscow knew how many people had actually been shot-he couldn't add or subtract victims-his mistake was just that, whereas in his 1922 memoir he was quite clear about attempting to burn only one body.

It's possible, though completely unproved, that the grave was opened in 1927-28, but if so, why would Stalin simply remove the two sets of remains buried separately and not obliterate the others?  That doesn't make sense-especially as he already had Yurovsky's 1920 Note which conveniently explained away the two missing bodies should anyone ever look.  All the Soviet government had to do was to produce it and say, "Here's why they're missing!"  Simply removing two, while leaving the other nine, seems illogical.

I suspect, though it's simply a hypothesis, that someone who knew what happened talked-and this started the ball rolling as it were in 1927-28.  After this, the people who would have known either start dropping like flies, being arrested, or suddenly get special government pensions or write absurd memoirs claiming all manner of inaccuracies.

Admittedly, there's no absolute proof that a second grave didn't exist, but nor is there a shred of evidence to support the idea that it did outside of the few memoirs, which contradict each other and make claims unsupported by science.  Given the weight of the evidence, that's why I suspect Yusovsky lied and that Anastasia and Alexei were missing.  And as I have said elsewhere, their absence doesn't equal survival, but without their remains it does mean that their deaths on that the night of 16-17 July, 1918, remain only a theory.

Greg King
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline griffin

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #49 on: April 05, 2005, 10:35:22 PM »
Quote
What's most interesting to me about Sukhorukov's recollections is that he names 22 men, not including himself, who were present for the exhumation of the imperial family and their servants from the mineshaft at the Four Brothers during the early morning hours of July 18. That's a lot of witnesses to the fact that all 11 bodies were still present a full 24 hours after the murders. No bodies were missing; Sukhorukov not only describes Alexei's body but also specifically names Alexei and his youngest sister Anastasia as the victims who were burned and buried together separately from the others in Pig's Meadow on the following morning, July 19, 1918.


Does anybody have any of the 22 witnesses names?

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #50 on: April 06, 2005, 10:43:22 AM »
Some of the names are in Sukhorukov's testimony given to us by Penny:
Quote
Sukhorukov's statement (NOT my translation):

April 3, 1928
…Having been in Kusvinsky works for several days, we received orders to go to Ekaterinburg … From the remainder of our battalion about thirty-five men were selected for a detachment with the Ural Regional Cheka, where I was also enlisted.  Several days later, on July 18-19, about twelve men (including me) were selected and told, “Comrades! A secret of state importance is entrusted to you.  You must die with it. If somebody does not justify our confidence, woe to him!”  Fyodor Lukiyanov (if I do not confuse the surname), the Ural Regional Cheka Chairman said, “Today we must go to bury Nicholas Romanov’s family.  They have been shot.”  At night we drove to the Verkh-Isetsky works in carriages.  I do not remember exactly how many people were there, but I do remember many of them. 1. Yurovsky, the town commissar. 2. Our commissar Pavlushin. Gorin and Rodzinsky from the Cheka; I do not remember the surname of a Magyar in a grey suit which he later burned with sulphuric acid; Yermakov. From the Red Guards were my countrymen Fyodor Tyagunov who was killed on the Deniken Front; Aleks. Bozhenov, Nikolai Vladimirovich Pospelov, his brother Ivan (they seem to be in Perm now), Nikolai Samoilov (he studies to become a Red professor in Moscow), Mikhail Veselkov (he works at the Sverdlovsk GPU).  All of them were workers from Lysva.  An Estonian Kyut was subsequently a commander of a machine-gun platoon in my detachment and was taken prisoner by Kolchak along with the machine-gun unit.  Kilzin, also an Estonian, was also commander of a machine-gun section in my detachment, and he was killed serving at Novopainsk in the Okhansky district.  Dimitry Ponomarov, a Lysva worker, and Guryev – both were also taken prisoner.  Workers from Verkhne-Turinsk were Petrov, Alek. Ryabkov – Ryabkov’s sister is working in the Regional Workers Peasants Inspection now, it seems. (Probably she has her husband’s surname now).  Yasha, I forgot his surname. Ryabkova and I know him.

In the morning, we arrived at the mines where the corpses were. Near the mine there were ashes without fire.  The boys began to root in the ground assuming the Tsar’s clothes had been burned there.  Some found a lot.  For example, Pospelov found two big diamonds set in platinum.  Sunegin found a diamond ring, and so on.

The time went by.  The work was urgent.  It was necessary to begin digging up the corpses.  Mounted and unmounted patrols were set up everywhere and the work began.  Vladimir Sunegin was the first who went down with a rope in his hand.  At first, we began to extract the firewood, whole logs.  Then the work got tedious, and we decided to take the corpses out directly.  I came down to help Sunegin and the first thing we came across was a leg of the last Nicholas.  He was removed successfully, and then all the others.  To be precise, it can be said that everybody was naked, except for the heir, who had on a sailor shirt but no trousers.  After the removal, the bodies were put near the mines and covered with tents.  We began to discuss what to do with them.  At first, we decided to dig a pit right on the road, do the burial and level the ground again.  But the soil turned out to be stony, and the job was abandoned.  We decided to wait for the cars, and drive the cargo to the Verkh-Isetsky pond.

In the evening the trucks came.  The corpses were loaded onto carts.  We transferred them from the carts into the trucks again and left.  Not far was something like a bridge made of ties, and the last truck to pass over got stuck.  All our efforts (to move the truck) were unsuccessful.  We decided to remove the ties, dig the pit, put the corpses into it, pour sulphuric acid over [the bodies], fill in the pit and replace the ties.  All was done in such a way that if the White Guards found the corpses, they could not guess from the number that it was the royal family.  We decided to burn two corpses on the fire and did so.  For our “sacrificial altar” we got the last heir.  The second body was the youngest daughter Anastasia.  After the corpses were burned, we scattered the ashes, dug a pit in the centre, shoveled in all the unburned remainders, made a fire again on the same spot and finished the work.

We arrived in Ekaterinburg on the second day, tired and angry.  That night I left as commander of an escort to accompany to the Perm Cheka Elena, daughter of the Serbian King and wife of one of the Grand Dukes.  With her was the Serbian Mission, Colonel Medichee, his lackey and about twenty representatives of the Sverdlovsk bourgeoisie.  I delivered all of that illustrious gathering successfully.  Having arrived in Perm, I got the newspaper Uralskii Rabochii (it seems to be from July 22) and read about the execution of Nicholas II and his family…

Sukhorukov.
DCSOSR Fond 41, Op. 1, Doc. 149, L 215, 219-221.  Russian Original.


According to Sukorukov the list is:
>> I do not remember exactly how many people were there, but I do remember many of them. 1. Yurovsky, the town commissar. 2. Our commissar Pavlushin. Gorin and Rodzinsky from the Cheka; I do not remember the surname of a Magyar in a grey suit which he later burned with sulphuric acid; Yermakov. From the Red Guards were my countrymen Fyodor Tyagunov who was killed on the Deniken Front; Aleks. Bozhenov, Nikolai Vladimirovich Pospelov, his brother Ivan (they seem to be in Perm now), Nikolai Samoilov (he studies to become a Red professor in Moscow), Mikhail Veselkov (he works at the Sverdlovsk GPU).  All of them were workers from Lysva.  An Estonian Kyut was subsequently a commander of a machine-gun platoon in my detachment and was taken prisoner by Kolchak along with the machine-gun unit.  Kilzin, also an Estonian, was also commander of a machine-gun section in my detachment, and he was killed serving at Novopainsk in the Okhansky district.  Dimitry Ponomarov, a Lysva worker, and Guryev – both were also taken prisoner.  Workers from Verkhne-Turinsk were Petrov, Alek. Ryabkov – Ryabkov’s sister is working in the Regional Workers Peasants Inspection now, it seems. (Probably she has her husband’s surname now).  Yasha, I forgot his surname. Ryabkova and I know him.<<

There would also be Yurovsky and the fellows he kept with him after he sent Ermakov's men away.

I don't know if the number is 25.  I think I posted somewhere some of the men who were with Yurovsky in Pig's Meadow, so, I'll go find it and post it.

I'm not even sure this Sukhorukov was there himself because I've not seen anyone mention him in their testimony.  That is why I ask if anyone else had ever mentioned him and if so was it before April 1928???

Far as I know, he may have conveniently poped up for the CHEKA in April of 1928.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #51 on: April 06, 2005, 10:59:22 AM »
His exact words on that subject:
I do not remember exactly how many people where there but I do remember many of them.  1. Yurovsky, the town commisar. 2. Our commissar Pavlushin. Gorin and Rodzinsky from the Cheka.  I do not remember the surname of a Magyar in a grey suit which he later burned with sulphuric acid; Yermikov. From the Red Guards were my countrymen Fyodor Tyagunov, who was killed on the Deniken front.  Aleks. Bozhenov, Nikolai Vladimirovich Pospelov, his brother Ivan.  Nikolai Samilov (he studies to become a Red professor in Moscow..) Mikhail Veselkov (He works at the Sverdlovsk GPU).  All of them were the workers from Lysva.  An Estonian Kyut was subsequently a commander of a machine gun platoon in my detachment and was taken prisoner by Kolchak along with the unit.  Kilzin, also an Estonian, was also commander of a machine gun section in my detachment, he was killed serving at Novopainsk in the Okhansky district.  Dmitry Ponomaryov, a Lysva worker and Guryev - both were also taken prisoners.  Workers from Verkhne-Turinsk were Petrov, Alek. Ryabkov, Ryabkov's sister is working in the Regional Workers Peasants Inspection now it seems (she probably has her husband's surname now), Yasha, I forget his surname. Ryabkova and I know him."

Sukharov's memoirs, April 3, 1928

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #52 on: April 06, 2005, 11:11:57 AM »
17 July 1918:
Right after the men discovered the gems and the jewels were collected and  BEFORE Yurovsky left for town, he said in his 1920's testimony:  "The comm. immediately decided to dismiss the whole group, leaving on guard a few men on horseback and five from the detachment.  The rest dispersesd."

Found on page 354 of  Steinberg an Khrustalev's book THE FALL OF THE ROMANOVS.

Yurovsky left the guard "around 10 to 11 o'clock in the morning" of 17 July....

Bodies were still at the Four Brother's Mine.


Anyway, Yurovsky returned to town around 8 in the evening of the 17th and left for the mine around 12:30 AM in the wee hours of the 18th...

18 July 1918 

Yurovsky mentioned what they did once they returned then the "dawn came" p. 355.

According to Sukhorukov he was not at the Mine at the time but at the Kusvinsky Works with about 35 other men who had been selected b the Ural Regional CHEKA.  His report tells us about 18 to 19 July....

"In the morning, we arrived at the mines where the corpses were."

Are we to assume Sukhorukov, those with him, and carts made it to the mines but not the vehicles after dawn?

Yurovsky mentions  carts which were going to be used because the "vehicles could not make it to the place of temporary burial".

Note the word "vehicles" is pural.  Meaning more than one.


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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #53 on: April 06, 2005, 11:46:43 AM »
According to Pavel Medvedev, he had remained in Ekaterinburg.  Testimony  21-22 Feb 1919.  But then, he said that Yurovsky had, also, remained in the Impatiev House after the truck with the bodies left. [His testimony is found, also, in THE FALL OF THE ROMANOVS].

Who else gives us an eye witness testimony about this point in time, early morning of the 18th,  so we can get another view of how many men were at the mine on the morning of the 18th?

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline lexi4

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #54 on: April 06, 2005, 08:18:11 PM »
Quote
According to Pavel Medvedev, he had remained in Ekaterinburg.  Testimony  21-22 Feb 1919.  But then, he said that Yurovsky had, also, remained in the Impatiev House after the truck with the bodies left. [His testimony is found, also, in THE FALL OF THE ROMANOVS].

Who else gives us an eye witness testimony about this point in time, early morning of the 18th,  so we can get another view of how many men were at the mine on the morning of the 18th?

AGRBear


Good question AGRBear
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline Elisabeth

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #55 on: April 07, 2005, 04:21:04 PM »
Bear, why does everyone else have to do your work for you? To answer your question, all you have to do is consult King and Wilson's book, FOTR, and you will see that Yurovsky also mentions the arrival of the men from the Kusvinsky factory: "some twenty men, of whom I knew only two or three. Once again, the entire operation threatened to be ruined by the intrusion of other people." Then you check the footnote, and you see that this quote comes from Yurovsky's unpublished 1922 memoir (quote, p. 326, footnote, APRF, p. 596, FOTR).

What is so hard about this? Why can't you research this yourself instead of continually asking others to do so AND all the while implying that the sources aren't really there?

Or is the point that you don't trust Yurovsky about anything and you consider him an unreliable witness? You think that, as you've stated elsewhere, the servants and 5 Chekists (??) were executed in the place of the imperial family and all of Yurovsky's statements are just very elaborate lies? (As are the statements of all the other witnesses?) Because I really think you're going to some other, very distant place with all this - somewhere that more properly belongs in the "Survivors" thread than it does here, in the "Final Chapter" one.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Elisabeth »
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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #56 on: April 08, 2005, 11:49:06 AM »
Unlike Elisabeth and a few others who have locked in their brain everything that was ever written about the IF,  some of us view this as a hobby and do not remember every detail.  Therefore, it is greatly appreciated when others, like  Elisabeth, do remember and help us through our research.

Time and time, again, I'm accused of having some kind of motive for seeking out answers.  And, time and time, again, I explain that I'm just looking for the truth.  In some of the research it does seem that truth is some "distant place" where we haven't a key.

And, yes, you are right Elisabeth, I dont trust Yurovsky or any of the murderers of Nicholas II and the others to tell us the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

So, thank you for the added information.  I do appreciate, since I do not have a copy of Yurovsky unpublished testimony...  

As for the five dead Letts found near the Four Brother's mine, it was not my speculation that these five were the people executed that night in the Impatiev House on the night of the 16th/17th of July.  It was the suggestion of one of the very early investigators who believed the execution was staged.  And, he was there in July of 1918, not I.  So, why shouldn't I ask what he was asking? [The five dead Letts should be and I think was discussed over on the Survior thread.  But which one, I don't recall at this moment.]


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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #57 on: April 08, 2005, 11:56:11 AM »
I do not know if it was mentioned or not, but Yurovsky did not write the text by himself.
The text was written by the hand of the famous Stalin's historians Pokrovsky.
Of course, Yurovsky participated in this.
But it sounds like a theme with variations.

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #58 on: April 08, 2005, 01:00:40 PM »
Quote
I do not know if it was mentioned or not, but Yurovsky did not write the text by himself.
The text was written by the hand of the famous Stalin's historians Pokrovsky.
Of course, Yurovsky participated in this.
But it sounds like a theme with variations.


Ahh yes, the ever inspiring theme with variation created by Stalin's "boys".

I wonder if I dare  speculate about Stalin's part in the entire affair.  In fact, I think, it makes one think that it might have been Stalin and not Lenin who was part of the skeme to execute Nicholas II.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #59 on: April 08, 2005, 01:13:16 PM »
NO, I do not think so.
Just the papers of Yurovsky were written at Stalin's time when attitude to the execution have changed and became a  secret matter. So, nobody knows what  is it true or not. But it should be  some true in this written story, I suppose. Pokrovsky did not make it himself, he based on the story which Yurovsky said to him.
(Till the middle of 20 - years in Ekaterinburg they printed
a post -cards with the Ipatiev House when the IF of the Last Tsary was murdered , a lot of books about IF and their last days were printed too, but then everything is disappeared . The last "open event" was the Meeting of Memories of Yurovsky at Ekaterinburg with young people.
Yurovsky understood the situation and said that maybe this is the last time when he could stood and said the story before the public).