Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Others

[LisaDavidson]

I have read the FATE OF THE ROMANOVS by King and Wilson.

"Impressed" isn't a word I used when talking about either men, Ermakov or Yurovsky, who  claimed to have executed Nicholas II.

From what I've read,  it seems Ermakov was called a "braggart" and a man who drank too much.

The Soviet's seem to look differently upon Ermakov than Yurovsky.  Apparently,  Ermakov, not Yurovsky, was given a  "special pension" p. 429 THE LAST TSAR by Edward Radzinsky.

As to who actually killed Nicholas II, I suppose that most of the guns were first aimed at Nicholas II.

AGRBear

One important reason for that difference is that Yurovsky died at a relatively young age, while Ermakov died some years later. I believe Yurovsky only lived 20 years after the murders.

[AGRBear]

Remember, Yurovsky was older b. in 1878 so for him, twenty years later, 1938 he was sixty and dying of cancer as well as having suffered from a bad heart before 1918.

Ermakov was born in 1884 and did live to be quite old and d. in 1952 so perhaps the communists could afford a better pension by then...

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

In Russian Revolution, thread Soviet life we were talking about pensions in today's world of a Russian.  This is the ages I was given:

55 for women
60 for men
(average duration of life  is 54-55 , so a lot of men die before the retirement)  )

I don't know what it was in 1938 or 1952.

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

This is a Colt 45 made in 1914.

It is not the one Yurovsky used, however.

AGRBear

[lexi4]

Bear, why does everyone else have to do your work for you? To answer your question,

What is so hard about this? Why can't you research this yourself instead of continually asking others to do so AND all the while implying that the sources aren't really there?

Or is the point that you don't trust Yurovsky about anything and you consider him an unreliable witness? You think that, as you've stated elsewhere, the servants and 5 Chekists (??) were executed in the place of the imperial family and all of Yurovsky's statements are just very elaborate lies? (As are the statements of all the other witnesses?) Because I really think you're going to some other, very distant place with all this - somewhere that more properly belongs in the "Survivors" thread than it does here, in the "Final Chapter" one.

I have to defend Bear here. I think Bear does great research. Every time I post a question, or anyone for that matter, Bear is one of the first people to jump on and share whatever information she has or has found. I have found Bear to be very helpful. I ask a lot of questions and would hate to think I was going to get attacked every time I did. We are all here to learn and share information, aren't we?

[AGRBear]

Unlike many people,  I don't care in what direction the truth causes me to take.

Sometimes, the road to truth can be a very lonely road to travel.

Other times, the road of truth can be crowded....

In the end, it takes us willingly or unwillingly to the same place.

AGRBear

[matushka]

I am sorry, I do not know where can I post what I want to say: I think that forum administrator will feel free to deplace it, if necessary.
Last days, I was reading with great interest about the question of survivors and other similar questions. I learn a lot, having never well study these questions. As often write rssyka, I would like to place my modest 2 kopeck; I hope it was not written anywhere.
Some of us search the thruth on these questions. Other wish OTMA was not shot. Every has his own version; some of us are not ready to accept the "official" version. But - as far as I read -  no one use something interesting for our research: the canonization of the entire family. You will say: mystical things have nothing to do here. But I am not about mystic. When the Church began the story of canonization, she study ALL the question, large and long; they study all the multiples problems of the personnality of the family, political and religious questions. I have no doubt they was thinking also about all the survivance's stories. It would have been impossible to canonize them, if someone was not killed in the Ipatiev house. It is not a secret, that a lot of Church rulers are very close to the KGB, stay very close to him. Some of them have very high rank in this institution. Is that good or not, it is out of topic. I am quite sure, that these Church'rulers, in this very delicate and important question asked about the truth. They have right to receive an answer. Perhaps they have also access to secret documents; perhaps not. But receive a clear answer, they can. See what we have: the Church canonize the entire family, recognizing the death of all of them. But the Church did not recognize these bodies, despite of all the expertises. I think there are good reasons.
It was just my supposition. I ask some friend, who know the system not to bad, who worked for the Patriarcate. He supported my supposition. So. The canonization of the Imperial Family is for me an historical and mystical answer to the "survivor"'s question... I add: if some of them, for example the women (Perm's story) had escaped, the Church would have canonize only Nicolas, giving for that some good theological reasons. Or would no one canonize.
So, I hope I shok none of you with this simple, modest, in the first glance stupid contribution. I apologize for my english.

[AGRBear]

Matushka, I don't have any answers for you.  I think  you have brought up some interesting questions.

I think there is a religious thread somewhere and I will look around and see if there is.  If I do find one, I will place the URL in this post and perhaps quote your post and place it there to see if we can find some answers.

Thank you Matushka for being interested in this subject.

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

I found this article. Hope I am posting it in the right place.

Nicholas and Alexandra

Unpublished Romanov Documents are in LC's Law Library

By ANDREI PLIGUZOV and ABBY SMITH

Following is the first of three articles on the Law Library's collection of documents and photographs relating to the assassination of the Russian imperial family. Parts two and three will be published in future issues of the LC Information Bulletin.

The Library of Congress has long served the nation as its "library of last resort," where people can locate copies of rare or hard-to-find research materials. But it has also served as what one might call the "repository of last resort."

Valuable collections from around the globe that have faced censorship, physical degradation or extinction for political, religious or other reasons have made their way here, either intentionally or by accident. In particular, the Law Library, dedicated to the preservation and access of international legal materials, has acquired some of its finest and rarest Russian holdings because donors have deposited documents there to ensure physical safety and free accessibility. This is precisely how the Law Library acquired its unique copy of the Sokolov Commission documents, investigative case files from the first inquiry into the murder of the Romanov family in 1918, begun just weeks after their assassination in Ekaterinburg, Russia. George Tellberg, a former professor of law at the University of Saratov, deposited the documents at the Library in 1953.

The story of the execution of the czar's family in the early hours of the morning of July 17, 1918, is now known in all its bloody details. Recent genetic tests, based on skeletal remains excavated from a pit in the Ural Mountains, where the bodies were dumped, have yielded irrefutable evidence of the death of the family, along with several retainers. Only the remains of Tsarevich Alexis and one of the younger daughters (either Maria or Anastasia) have not been found. Their bodies are believed to have been incinerated. Genetic testing has also proved that Anna Anderson, who long claimed to be Anastasia, had no genetic relationship to the imperial family.

This recent investigation into the murders has been fully supported by the current Russian government, which has even floated, or at least encouraged, rumors that the imperial remains will be interred in the official resting place of the Romanov dynasty in St. Petersburg.

Ironically, the present investigation is driven by exactly the same motives as Sokolov's inquiry -- to find out what actually happened; to prove beyond a doubt that all members of the imperial family were killed (and, therefore, forestall any claims by pretenders like Anderson); and to discredit the Bolsheviks and their methods.

As we now know, the imperial family was killed because the city where they were being held by the Red Army was soon to be overrun by the anticommunists. In the midst of the chaos of civil war, the Bolshevik leaders, thousands of miles away in the Kremlin, deemed it expedient to kill the Romanovs rather than risk their capture during evacuation to a safer place.

Within days of their death, Adm. Alexander Kolchak's "white" army marched into Ekaterinburg and, by July 30, he ordered an investigation into the murders. The gross ineptness of the original investigators, Aleksei Nemetkin and Ivan Sergeev, soon led Kolchak to have all the forensic materials remanded to his personal custody. On Feb. 6, 1919, he handed the case over to Nikolai Sokolov, Investigating Magistrate for Cases of Special Importance of the Omsk Tribunal. During the criminal investigation, Sokolov examined all available witnesses connected with the imperial family during their exile. He gathered photographs, deposed servants, doctors and tutors to the children, guards, soldiers and local eyewitnesses.

The findings of the Sokolov Commission, comprising eight volumes and dozens of photographs, became important state documents for Kolchak's Siberian government and were carefully preserved through the chaos of war, the disorderly retreat to Eastern Siberia and the army's dispersal in the Far East. Sokolov himself transported a set of documents through Vladivostok to Paris, where he prepared a book about the fate of the Romanovs (published posthumously in 1925). Seven of the original eight volumes that belonged to Sokolov are now at Harvard University.

The Law Library has materials that had been in the personal possession of Kolchak's justice minister, George Tellberg. Not unlike today, when authors are rushing to print with books based on the findings of the latest investigation, the early 1920s also saw a rash of books about the then-mysterious fate of the imperial family. Tellberg was among the first into print. In 1920 he published The Last Days of the Romanovs, based on files he had borrowed from Kolchak and his officers. Tellberg held on to the materials and in 1954 donated them to the Law Library, along with a large collection of materials relating to the Siberian government and the last years of Romanov rule.

The collection includes material never published in its original form. While some eyewitness testimony appeared in a German edition of the Sokolov Commission papers in 1987 (in Russian), the evidence that did not relate directly to the assassination was omitted, such as the deposition of Sidney Gibbes, the English tutor to the imperial family from 1908 until the family's avacuation from Tobolsk to Ekaterinburg in spring 1918. Gibbes lived in the royal household, and his account provides new insights into the character of the emperor and individual members of the family, including the children. The oldest, Olga, "was fair, direct, honest and open ... but could be easily irritated and her manners were a little brusque." Tatiana "was reserved, haughty, not open, but the most responsible." Maria loved their place of exile in Tobolsk, and she told Gibbes "she would happily stay there forever." Anastasia "was a real comedian, and she made everyone laugh. But she herself never laughed, just her eyes twinkled." And Alexis was clever, though not fond of reading, and had odd fancies, such as collecting old nails, saying "they may be useful."

While abroad, refugees from Russia such as Tellberg and Sokolov published their accounts of the murder of the Romanovs. In their homeland, the Soviet government refused to divulge any information about the fate of Nicholas and his family. This vacuum of official information was soon filled with numerous popular tales of the miraculous survival of one or more of the children. Several young women declared themselves to be Anastasia, and a telegraph operator in Siberia who was barely literate, certainly knew no foreign languages and was wholly ignorant of the intricacies of court etiquette (which would have been second nature to a Romanov), stubbornly insisted that he was the Tsarevich Alexis.

Today, thanks to unfettered access to all of Sokolov's materials, we have little trouble separating fact from fiction. But there is one pressing question: Who ordered the murders? Lenin's close adviser Yakov Sverdlov? Lenin himself?

There is no written evidence, because in 1918, just as today, such an order would have been given by telephone or face to face behind closed doors. Just as Tellberg understood how important it is for posterity that all documentary evidence about the Romanov deaths be preserved, so the men who ordered the execution understood that that which is not recorded cannot be preserved.

And so history must remain silent.

Andrei Pliguzov is a senior research fellow at the Russian Academy of Sciences who is doing archival research in the Law Library. Abby Smith is assistant to the associate librarian for Library Services and holds a doctorate in Russian history from Harvard University.

I thought this might find some interest to other posters who might not have seen this on another thread.

AGRBear

[lexi4]

Thank you bear, I am one of those posters. Do you know if the report has been translated into English? The one at the LC

[La_Mashka]

That is a very interesting article.


As for what happened to the 2 missing bodies, like you said Bear, as long as they are missing, we can ALL speculate and come up with different explanations.

What I also find intriguing is that most "survivors" claim to be either Aleksei or Anastasia.... funny how those 2 bodies are the ones missing...

[Inquiring_Mind]

I came across this. I wish I could visit and look at these documents. It looks as though it has things I have only read about second hand.

http://oasis.harvard.edu:10080/oasis/deliver/deepLink?_collection=oasis&uniqueId=hou01456

[La_Mashka]

Oh wow!!!!    

Thats a lot of documents....  


thanks for the very interesting link!!!

[AGRBear]

I came across this. I wish I could visit and look at these documents. It looks as though it has things I have only read about second hand.

http://oasis.harvard.edu:10080/oasis/deliver/deepLink?_collection=oasis&uniqueId=hou01456

Here is just an example of what is on the Harvard List:
>>Documents concerning the investigation into the death of Nicholas II: Guide.

fMS Russ 35

Documents concerning the investigation into the death of Nicholas II: Guide.
Houghton Library, Harvard College Library



Harvard University, Cambridge, MA 02138

© 2003 The President and Fellows of Harvard College


Descriptive Summary

Repository: Houghton Library, Harvard College Library, Harvard University
Location: f
Call No.: MS Russ 35
Creator: .
Title: Documents concerning the investigation into the death of Nicholas II,
Date(s): 1918-1920.
Quantity: 7 v. (1 linear ft.)
Abstract: Documents compiled for the investigation into the deaths of Russian Czar Nicholas II and his family.

Administrative Information

Acquisition Information: *64M-250
Gift of Bayard L. Kilgour, Jr.; received: 1966.


Arrangement

Organized into the following series by volume:

*      Volume I
*      Volume II
*      Volume III.
*      Volume IV
*      Volume V
*      Volume VI
*      Volume VII



Scope and Content

Contains documents compiled for the investigation into the deaths of Czar Nicholas II and his family. Records include testimonies, orders, and other court papers, in addition to correspondence, reports, and photographs. Much of the material pertains to the examination of articles used as material evidence in the investigation which was conducted by N.A. Sokolov, Coroner of the Court. Photographs (with negatives) are of the royal family and the house and area in Ekaterinburg where they were killed. Also includes some correspondence in English concerning the disposition of the belongings of Nicholas and his family.


Container List



*      Series: Volume I
Written: "inquiry."
The Coroner of Court of Special Affairs N. Sokolov.
Conformable to the original.
Coroner of Court N. Sokolov (signed).

*      (1) Order of the Prosecuting Attorney of the Ekaterinburg District Court, No. 131, July 30, 1918, to Namietkin, Coroner of Justice of Special Affairs to begin investigations; including the testimony of Fedor Nikitin Gorshkov p. 1-3


*      (2) Official opening of the preliminary investigations by the Coroner of Justice of Special Affairs, July 30, 1918 p. 4


*      (3) Report of the Coroner of Justice on the examination of the mines, July 17-30, 1918 p. 5


*      (4) List of objects received from the military authorities p. 6


*      (5) Testimony of Evdokia Timoffevna Lobanov, August 1, 1918 p. 7-8


*      (6) Correspondence regarding the delivery of the diamond to Malinovsky Capitain of the Bodyguard p. 9


*      (7) Testimonies of Andrey Andreevitch Sheremetevsky, Mikhail Dmitriev Alferov, and Mikhail Ivanov Babinov, August 3, 1918 p. 10-12


*      (8 ) Order of the Prosecuting Attorney of the Ekaterinburg District Court, No. 195, August 10, 1918, to Namietkin, Coroner of Justice of Special Affairs to transfer investigations to Sergeev, Member of this Court p. 13


*      (9) Examination of Ipatiev's house by Namietkin, Coroner of Justice of Special Affairs, August 2-8, 1918 p. 14-24


*      (10) Prescript of the Ekaterinburg District Court, July 30 - August 12, 1918, to Namietkin, Coroner of Justice of Special Affairs to transfer the investigation to Sergeev, Member of the Court p. 25


*      (11) Decision of Namietkin, Coroner of Justice of Special Affairs, August 13, 1918, to transfer this affair to Sergeev, Member of the Court for further preliminary investigation p. 26


*      (12) The envelope that contained the diamond received by Namietkin, Coroner of Justice of Special Affairs from Malinovsky, Capitain of the Bodyguard p. 27-28


*      (13) Report of the examination of the diamond by Namietkin, Coroner of Justice of Special Affairs, September 8, 1918 p. 29


*      (14) Report of Malinovsky, Capitain of the Bodyguard to Namietkin, Coroner of Justice of Special Affairs of the transferance of pieces of pearls to Yartzev, Capitain of the Bodyguard p. 30


*      (15) Order of the Chief of Staff of the Ural Special Corps, No. 21001, September 7, 1918, to Malinovsky - to give the diamond to Namietkin, Coroner of Justice of Special Affairs p. 31


*      (16) Order of the Chief of Staff of the Ural Special Corps, No. 21002, September 7, 1918, to the commandant of the station of Cheliabinsk, to aid Namietkin, Coroner of Justice, in every way possible p. 32


*      (17) The same document p. 33


*      (18 ) Prescript of the President of the Ekaterinburg District Court, No. 45, July 26-August 8, 1918, to Namietkin, Coroner of Justice of Special Affairs, ordering his release from the investigations p. 34


*      (19) Report of the examination of Ipatiev's house by Sergeev, Member of the Court, August 11-14, 1918 p. 35-41


*      (20) Order of Sergeev, Member of the Court, August 18, 1918, to remove certain sections from the wall and floor of a room in Ipatiev's house p. 42


*      (21) Report of same date of the removal sections from the floor of the room p. 43


*      (22) Correspondence regarding the finding of objects that had belonged to the Royal Family in the possession of Fedossia Illarionovna Balmisheva and their confiscation p. 44-47


*      (23) Testimony of Terenty Ivanovitch Chemodurov, August 15-16, 1918 p. 48-53


*      (24) Report of Kholmanskikh, sub-inspector, to Sergeev, Member of the Court p. 54


*      (25) Report of Sergeev, Member of the Court, regarding the removal of sections from the wall of the room in Ipatiev's house, August 20-21, 1918 p. 55


*      (26) Report of the Prosecuting Attorney of the Ekaterinburg District Court, No. 263, August 20, 1918, to Sergeev, Member of the Court with material evidence: man's finger, two pieces of epidermis, an earing, artificial teeth, pieces of a hand-bomb, a necktie holder, bones of a bird, pieces of a small glass bottle (vinaigrette), an iron piece in the form of a horse-shoe from the heel of a man's boot, buttons, and an iron shovel p. 57


*      (27) Correspondence that had accompanied documents which were found in the office of the Uralsk District Soviet p. 58-59


*      (28 ) Correspondence regarding the finding of objects that had belonged to the Royal Family in the possession of Peter Illarionov Lilov, and in the building which was occupied by the Uralsk District Soviet p. 60-64


*      (29) Report of the Prosecuting Attorney of the Ekaterinburg District Court, No.283, September 3, 1918, to Sergeev, Member of the Court with a copy of the testimony of doctor Nikolay Arsenievitch Sakovitch p. 65-69


*      (30) Report of the examination of documents of the Uralsk District Soviet by Sergeev, Member of the Court, September 5, 1918 p. 70-71


*      (31) Acknowledgement of these documents as material evidence p. 32

.........

[AGRBear]

*      (32) Request of Professor Dill to Sergeev, Member of the Court, for permission to study the material of the investigation for historical research purposes p. 72


*      (33) Refusal of Professor Dill's request by Sergeev, Member of the Court, September 6, 1918 p. 73-74


*      (34) Testimonies of Peter Illarionov Lilov, Nazar Kharitonov Novosselov and Fedossia Illarionovna Balmishev made to the Ekaterinburg criminal militia p. 75-78


*      (35) Report of the finding objects that had belonged to the Royal Family in the building of the Volzhsko-Kamsky Bank, September 4, 1918 p. 79-80


*      (36) Testimony of Peter Andreevitch Jilliard made to Sergeev, Member of the Court, September 12, 1918 p. 81-86


*      (37) Report of the examination and value of the diamond made in the presence of Mr. Jilliard and Mr. Gibbs, September 14, 1918 p. 87


*      (38 ) Report of the official sealing of objects that had belonged to the Royal Family, found in the building of the Volzhsko-Kamsky Bank, September 11-24, 1918 p. 88


*      (39) Report of the Ekaterinburg criminal militia to Sergeev, Member of the Court, No. 2039, October 13, 1916, including testimonies p. 89-141


*      (40) List of the documents made by Professor Dill found in the building of the Volzhsko-Kamsky Bank p. 142-143


*      (41) Protests of Kazem-Bek, President of the Ekaterinburg District Court, Iordansky, Proseciting Attorney of the same Court and Sergeev, Member of the Court against the occupation of Ipatiev's house by General Haida, October 8, 1918 p. 144


*      (42) Testimony of Father Ioann Vladimirovitch Storozhev, October 8-10, 1918 p. 145-150


*      (43) The decision of Sergeev, Member of the Court, October 16, 1918, to wothdraw from this investigation the documents involving Fedossia Illarionovna Balmisheva, Peter Illarionov Lilov and Nazar Kiprianov Novosselov for having had in their possession objects that had belonged to the Royal Family p. 151


*      (44) Testimony of Mikhail Ivanov Letemin, October 18-19, 1918 p. 152-155


*      (45) Decision of October 20, 1918, to withdraw from this investigation the documents relative to the finding of objects that had belonged to the Royal Family in the possession of Mikhail Ivanov Letemin, on the grounds article 314 crim. law proceedure p. 156


*      (46) Testimony of Nikolay Yakovlevitch Sedov, November 28-29, 1918 p. 157-158


*      (47) Correspondence with the Ekaterinburg Criminal Police Department p. 159


*      (48 ) Testimony of Alexey Andreevitch Volkov, October 23, 1918 p. 160-161


*      (49) Report of the Prosecuting Attorney of the Ekaterinburg District Court, October, 21, 1918, No. 313, with correspondence regarding the discovery of objects that had belonged to the Royal Family in the possession of Fedossia Illarionovna Balmisheva p. 162-165


*      (50) Report of the Prosecuting Attorney of the Ekaterinburg District Court, September 24, 1918, No. 294, to the Chief of the Ekaterinburg Criminal Police Department, including a letter written by Grigory Nikolaevitch Kotegov p. 166-167


*      (51) Inquiries made by the Ekaterinburg Criminal Militia p. 168-173


*      (52) Report of the examination of the diary of Crown Prince Alexey Nikolaevitch by Sergeev, Member of the Court, October 24, 1918 p. 174-175


*      (53) Report of the opening of the graves and the examination of the dead bodies of unknown men in the city of Ekaterinburg with the conclusions of a physician, November 1, 1918 p. 176-177


*      (54) Inquiries made by the Ekaterinburg Criminal Militia p. 178-188


*      (55) Inquiries of the same militia made by order of Sergeev, Member of the Court, No. 33, November 5, 1918 p. 189-193


*      (56) Testimonies of Maria Grigorievna Starodumova and Vassa Ossipovna Driagina, November 11, 1918 p. 194-195


*      (57) Testimony of Maria Danilovna Medvedeva, November 9-10, 1918 p. 196-197


*      (58 ) Decision of Sergeev, Member of the Court, to release Medvedeva from arrest, November 11, 1918 p. 198-199