Author Topic: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Others  (Read 67587 times)

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #150 on: August 10, 2005, 11:22:04 AM »


Here is the chart from THE QEUST FOR ANASTASIA by Klier and Mingay.

It shows the paths of the bullet holes found in the skeletons.
1. Anna Demidova
2. Evgeny Botkin  
3. GD Olga Nikolaevna
4. Nicholas II
5. GD Maria or GD  Anastasia Nikolaevna
6.  GD Tatina Nikolaevna
7. Alexandra Fedorovna [NOTE: She is missing on the diagram?]
8. Ivan Kharitonov
9. Aleksei Trupp
       

AGRBear

PS  #7 Alexandra is missing from the chart.  PSS According to THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS  p. 308  "..bullet slamed into the left side of her,"  [Alexandra's],  "skull"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #151 on: August 10, 2005, 11:30:29 AM »
One of three which I posted in Questions about the mass grave in Pig's Meadow:

Quote
The parts in black are the bones missing according to Kleir and Mingay:



They are listed as:

1. Anna Demidova    2. Evgeny Botkin  3. GD Olga Nikolaevna


AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #152 on: August 16, 2005, 11:11:58 AM »
Here are two photographs which would be similar to the truck said to have carried 11 bodies toward the Four Brother's Mine before it became stuck.  It also carried three men in the cab and several others hanging on outside.....:

Quote
2 Fiats

1. 1916


2. Undated



Penny sent us a photo of the Fiat and I'll go find it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #153 on: August 16, 2005, 11:16:48 AM »
Penny sent us this photo of a Fiat truck:



AGRBear

As you can see this fiat didn't have running boards so I'm not sure where the fellows who were on the outside were riding.  Surly they didn't ride on top of the bodies???  And there are no sides slates or cover....

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #154 on: August 16, 2005, 11:30:12 AM »
What does Yurovsky tell us in 1934 testimony:
>>). Yermakov drove us somewhere at the Verkh-Isetsky Works. I was never at that place and did not know it. At about two-three versts (or maybe more) from the Verkh-Isetsky Works, a whole escort of people on horseback or in carriages met us. I asked Yermakov who these people were, why they were there. He answered that he had assembled those people. I still do not know why there were so many. I heard only shouts "We thought they would come here alive, but it turns out they are dead." Also, it seems about three-four versts farther our truck got stuck between two trees. There where we stopped several of Yermakov's people were stretching out girls' blouses. We discovered again that there were valuables and they were taking them. I ordered that men be posted to keep anyone from coming near the truck.

The truck was stuck and could not move. I asked Yermakov, "Is it still far to the chosen place?" He said "Not far, beyond railroad beds." And there behind the trees was a marsh. Bogs were everywhere. I wondered "Why had he herded in so many people and horses. If only there had been carts instead of carriages." But there was nothing we could do. We had to unload to lighten the truck, but that did not help. Then I ordered them to load the carriages, because it was already light and we did not have time to wait any longer.<<

 

I'm  off to find the data which tells us how many men were riding inside and outside the truck's cab.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #155 on: August 16, 2005, 11:54:23 AM »
Pavel Medvedev's testinony in Feb 1919:
>>...The people I brought first busied thmselves with loading the corpses of the dead onto a truck hat had been brought up to  the front entrance.  The corpses were brought out on stretches made of sheets wrapped around harness beams taken from sleights in the  counrtyard.  The corpses piled into the tuck were covered wit part of soldier's blanets taken from the small storage room..... Liukhanov, a worker from the Zlokazov factory, was the chauffeur.  Pyotr Yermakov<< [Ermankov]>>and the other memberber of the Extrodinary Commission climbed into the truck and took the corpses away.  I do not know what direction they went...  Yurovsky went to his office, and I went home to the detachment.<<

Paul Medvedev does not have himself nor Yurovsky on the truck when it left the Ipatiev House....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #156 on: August 16, 2005, 12:12:04 PM »
In Yurovsky's  1920 testimony he tells us:

>>...truck did not arrive at 12 o'clock; it came only a half past one.<<

>>Everyone was asleep when the car came.<<

>>The car's late arrival caused the commandant to doubt Yev's [Yermakov's]<< [Ermakov's]>>thoroughness, and the comm. decided to stay with the whole operation to the end.

Around 3 o'clock in the monring, we departed for the place that Ye-v was to have prepared... First it was assumed that they [the corpses] would be brought by car and then, beginning at a certain point, on horseback, since the car could go no further.  The place selected was an abandone mine.  After driving a little more than 3 miles passt the Upper Isetsk factory, we bumped into a whole encampment--about 25 people-- on horseback... <<  


There is no mention of a truck or car getting stuck up to this point.

He continues:
>>They began to load the corpses into the light carts, but wagons were needed.<<

He doesn't tell us the corpses were placed back onto the truck.

>>It was growing light.  The comm. sent men on horseback  to find the place..... The car had gotten stuck beatween two trees, so it was abandon, and, after the corpses were covered with blankets, the carts moved in single file.  We drove..."<<

The car was stuck so what was it they "drove"?  The carts???  The truck???  

>>...We drove about 11 miles from Yekaterinburg and stopped a mile from the village of Koptiaki, this was around 6 or 7 o'clock in the morning.  In the forest, an abandoned prospector's mine about eight feet deep was gound..... The comm. ordered the corpses undressed and a fire built.....<<

Later that morning, after 10 or 11, >>....the comm. went to report to the Ural [Regionl  Soveit] Executive Comittee....<<   Afterwards the  >>...comm. left for that spot but did not arrive immediately because his car broke down.  He [eventualy] reached the mines on foot...<<

There is, again, mentioned "the truck" and  "a car with Cheka secruity officers" and some men on horseback"...

On  the  events of the 18th Yurovsky tells us:  >>Because the carts were flimsy and falling apart, the comm. left for town to get motor vehicles (a truck and two motorcars, one for the Chekists).  The carts had broken down earlier and the vehicles were needed for transport to the deep mines, but in fact the vehicles could not make it to the place of temporary burial and that was why the carts still had to be used.  When the vehicles arrived, the carts were alreadly moving -- the vehicles met them a quarter of a mile closer to Koptiaki.  We could not begin the trip until 9 o'clock at night.  We crossed the railroad tracks and, a quarter of a mile later, we moved the corpses onto the truck.  We drove with difficulty, paving hazardous places with railway ties, but we still got stuck a few times.  Around 4:00 in the morning of the 19th, one of the vehicles got completly stuck.<<

Let's see, there was a car stuck between two trees and a car that broke down.

I'm losing track of the number of cars and  trucks used....

And,  I still haven't found the data on all who was on the first truck which left the Ipatiev House.....

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #157 on: August 16, 2005, 12:55:49 PM »
Ahhhh, here it is on p. 316 of King and Wilson's book THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS:

>>THE FIAT TRUCK SWUNG out of the Ipatiev House gates and turned right ".....with the remains of the Romanovs", as Kudrin recalled.  Yurovsky, Ermkaov, and Lyukhanov were squeezed together in the cab; in the rear, armed with rifles and crouched in pools of blood, uncomfortabled closed to the mound of protruding arms and legs, were Soams, Lacher and Verhas.  Flimpsy wooded side rails along he bed of he truck shielded the heap of bodies, preventing them from rolling off...."

AGRBear

PS Kudrin = Mikhail Medvedev
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #158 on: August 18, 2005, 10:50:19 PM »
Sorry to ask, but I see spelling of Pyotr Zakharovich Yermakov is being spelled two ways. Is it with a 'y' or an 'e'? Was he one of the men who just happened to be around conscripted into the burying of the IF, or was he there from the beginning?

Also, was he also a GPU worker who worked with Mikhail Medvedov?

Lastly, what happend to these two men later in life?
Thanks for any input.

Tainia
TatianaA


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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #159 on: August 19, 2005, 01:40:45 PM »
Yes, Ermankov and Yermankov are the same person.  

There is some information about him around here with his photo...

Let me see if I can find it for you.

Quote
Peter Ermakov:
 
"Unlike Yurovsky, Ermakov positively relished his role in the Romanov murders."  wrote King and Wilson, p. 512 THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS.  
 
He had given his Mauser revolver to the Ekaterinburg museum and often took his friends to see the gun which he claimed he had used to  shoot and kill Nicholas II.
 
Evidently, it was Ermakov and not Yurovsky who made public appearances and voiced in detail what had occured in the basement of the Impatiev House on the night of 16/17  July 1918.
 
Unlike Yurovsky,  Ermakov was never censured but p. 513 "rewarded,  given promotions, better apartments and even additional pay."  Even his retirement pay was different.  He received a "personal pension".
 
Died 1952 and given full honors.
 
It appears to what I've read,  the Soviets view Ermakov with a "proud eye" more than they did Yurovsky.  What was the reason?  I thought Ermakov was the "drunkard" and the one who had been "unreliable"  
 
AGRBear



AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #160 on: August 21, 2005, 07:26:56 PM »
Here is a web site about the skulls of the eleven.

http://www.tzar.orthodoxy.ru/ost/exp/photos.htm

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #161 on: August 25, 2005, 01:28:06 PM »
In the next couple of days,  I'm going to type in the testimony of Yurovsky of 1920. Since this copy is found in THE FALL OF THE ROMANOVS, I assume, the words in the brackets are the authors Steinberg's and Khrustalev's:

>>On 16 July [1918], a telegram in previously agreed-upon language came from Perm containing the order to exerminate the R-ovs [Romanovs].  At first (in May), the intention was to bring Nicholas to trial, but this was prevented by the advancing Whites.  On the 16th at 6 o'clock in the evening, Filipp G-n [Goloshchekin] decreed that the order be carried out.  A car was to arrive at midnight to take away the corpses.  At 6 o'clock, the boy [Leonid Sednyov] was taken away, which were much upset the R-ovs and their people.  Doctor Botkin even came to ask why this was called for?  It was explained that the boy's uncle, who had been arrested, had escaped and then returned and wanted to see his nephew.  The boy was sent the next day to his birthplace (in Tula province, I think).  The truck did not arrive at 12 o'clock, it came only at half past one.  This delayed carrying out the order.  By the time everything was ready: 12 people with revolvers (inclucing 5 Latvians) were selected who were supposed to carry out the sentence; 2  the Latvians  refused to shoot at girls.

Everyone was asleep when the car came.  Botkin was woken up, and he woke up al the rest.  The explanation was as follows:  "The R-ov famly must be moved from upstairs to downstairs as all is not calm in town."  They dressed in half an hour.  A downstaris room was selected that had wall so plastered wood (to prevent [the bullets from] ricocheting); all the furniture was removed.  The detachment was at the ready in the next room.  The R-ovs suspected noting.  The comm. [commandant] went to get them personaly, alone, and led them downstairs to the room below.  Nich was carrying A. [Aleksei] in his arms; the rest carried little pillows and other small things with them.  Walking into the empty room, A.F. [Alexandra Fodorovna] asked:  "What, there isn't even a chair?  One isn't even allowed to sit down?"  The comm. ordered two chairs to be brought, Nich. seated A. on one, and A.F. sat down on the other.  The commandant ordered the rest to stand in a row.  

When they had taken their places, he called in  the detachment. When the detachment came in, the commandant told the R-ovs, in light of the fact that heir relatives in Europe wer continuing their agression against Soviet Russia, the Ural [Regional] Soviets] Executive Commitee had decreed that they were to be shot.  Nicholas turned his back to the detachement, his face toward his family, then as though collecting himself, turned to the commandant with the question: "What?  What?"  The comm. hurriedly repeated his statement and order the detachment to get ready.  The detachment had been given intructions earlier on whom to shoot and were ordered to aim directly for the heart to avoid a large amount of blood and to finish them off more quickly.  Nicholas, again, turning to the family, said nothing more, the others made a few incoherent exclamations this all last a few seconds.  Then the shooting started; [it] last for two or three mintues.  Nich. was killed on the spot by the comm. himself.  A. F. died immediately after that and the other R-ovs (altogather 12 people were shot [in fact 11 people were shot]): N., A.F., four daughters (Tatiana, Olga, Maria, and Anastasia), Doctor Botkin, the footman Trupp, the cook Tikhomirov [actually Kharitonov], another cook, and a lady-in-waiting whose last name the commandants has forgotten [actually, Alexandra's personal maid, Anna Demidova].  A., three of his sister, the lady-in-waiting, and Bothkin were still alive. They had to be shot again.   This surprised the comm. because they had aimed for the heart.  It was also surprising that the bullets from the pistols recocheted off something and jumped about the room like hail. When they tried to finish off one of the girls with bayonets, the bayonet could not pierce the corset.  Thanks to all of this, the entire procedure, including "verification" (feeling the pulses, etc.) took around 20 minutes.

>>Then they started carrying out the corpses and putting them into the car, which had been covered with heavy blankets so the blood wouldn't seep out.  At this point, the stealing began:  three reliable comrades had to be assigned to guard the corpses while the procedure continued (the corpses were brought out one by one).  All of the stolen goods were returned under the threat of execution (a gold watch, a cigarette case with diamonds, and so on).  The comm. was only assigned to carry out the sentence;  the removal of corpses and son on was comrade Yermakov's responsibility (a worker from the Upper Isetsk factory, a party comrade, ex-prisioner).  He was suppose to come with the car and be admitted by using  the agreed-upon password, "chimney sweep."  The car's late arrival caused the commandant to doubt Ye-v's [Yermakov's] thoroughness, and the comm. decided to stay with the whole operation at the end.<<

(to be continued below)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #162 on: August 25, 2005, 01:28:40 PM »
(continued)

Around 3 o'clock in the morning, we departed for the place tha Ye-v was to have prepared (beyond the Upper Isetsk factory).  First it was assumed that they [the corpses] would be brought by car and then, beginning at a certain point, on horseback, since the car could go no futher.  The place selected was an abandoned mine.  After driving a little more than 3 miles past the Upper Isetk factory, we bumped into a whole encampment -- about 25 people-- on horseback, in light, horse-drawn carts, etc.  There were workers (members of the soviet, of the Executive Committee, etc.) whom Ye-v had prepared.  The first thing they exclaimed was:  "Why didn't you bring them to us alive?!"  they thought the Romanovs' execution would be entrusted to them.  They began to load the corpses into the light carts, but wagons were needed.  This was very inconvenient.  They immediately began to clean out [the corpses'] pockets -- it was necessary to theaten them with being shot and to post sentries here as well.  Then it was discovered that Tatiana, Olga  and Anastasia were dressed in some kind of special corsets.  It was decided to strip the corses bare, but not here, only at the place of burial.  But it turned out that no one knew where the mine was that had been selected for this purpose.

It was growing light.  The comm. sent men on horseback to find the place, but no one found anything.  It turned out that nothing had been readied at all:  there were no shovels and so on.  The car had gotten stuck between two trees, so it was abandoned, and, after the coorpses were covered with blankets, the carts were moved in single file.  We drove about 11 miles from Yekaterinburg and stopped a mile from the village of Koptiaki; this was around 6 or 7 o'clock in the morning.  In the forest, an abandoned prospector's mine about eight feet deep was found (gold was once mined there).  The mine had a couple of feet of water.  The commn. ordered the corpses undressed and a fire built so that everthing could be burnt.  Men on horseback were posted everywhere to drive away all passersby.

When one of the girls was being undressed, it was noticed that the bullets had torn th corsset in places, and diamonds could be seen in the holes.  The eyes of those all around began burning brightly.  The comm. immediately decided to dismiss the whole group, leaving on guard a few men on horseback and five from the detachment.  The rest dispersed.  The detachement began to undress and burn the corpses.  A.F. was wearing a whole pearl belt made of several strands and sewn into cloth.  Around each girl's neck, it turned out, was a portrait of Rasputin with the text of his prayer sewn into the amulets.  The diamonds were instantly removed.  They (things made of diamonds, tht is) amounted to about eighteen pounds.  They were buried in the cellar of one of the little houses at the Alapaevsk factory;  in 1919 they were dug up and brought to Moscow.

After we put everything valuable into bags, the rest of what was found on the corses was burnt and the corpses themselves were lowered into the mine.  While this was going on, a few of the baluables (someone's brooch, Botkin's denturs) were dropped, and in the effort to cave in the mind with the help of hand granades, it was evident that the corpses were damaged and that certain parts were torn off some of them--that is how the commandant explains how the Whites (who discovered it) came to find a ripped-off finger and so forth at this spot.  But it was not planned to leav the R-ovs here--the mine had earlier been designated only a temporary burial spot.

Having completed the opersation and left the guard, around 10 to 11 o'clock in the morning (already 17 July), the comm. went to report to the Ural [Regional Soviet] Executive Committee, where he found Safarov and Beloborodov.  The comm. told them what had been found and expressed his regret that they had not allowed him to conduct a timely search of the R-ovs.  The comm. found out from Chutskaev (chairman of the Executive Committee of the city soviet) that a mile 6 along the Moscow highway there are very deep, abandoned mines suitable for burying the R-ovs.  The comm. left for that spot but did not arrive immediately because his car broke down.  He [eventually] reach the mines on foot and actually found three very deep mines filled with water, where he decided to surbmerge the corpses by tying rocks to them.  Guards were there who served as inconvient witnesses, so it was decided to send, together with the truck containing the corpses, a car with Cheka security officers, who would arrest everyone there under the pretext of a search.  To make his way back, the comm. appropriated a pair of horses that happened to come along.  Those who had been by chance detained [for being in the area] were sent on.  After setting out [for town] on horseback, together with another Chekist [member of the Cheka], to organize the whole matter, the comm. fell from his horse and badly hurt himself (afterward, the Chekist fell as well).  In case the plan with the mines didn't work, it was decided to burn the corpses or bury them in clay pits filled with water, after first disfiguring the corspes beyond recognition with sulfuric acid.<<

(continued below)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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When the vehicles arrived, the carts were already
« Reply #163 on: August 25, 2005, 01:29:06 PM »
(continued)

>>Finally, having returned to town around 8 o'clock in the evening on the 17th, everything necessary began to be gathered; the kerosene, the sulfuric acid.  Horse-drawn carts without drivers were taken from the prison.  It had been planned to leave a 11 o'clock at night, but the incident with the Chekist held things up, and we left for the mine, together with ropes to drag out the corpses and soon on, only around 12:30 on the night of the 17th to the 18th.  In order to isolate the mine  (the first prospector's mine) for the duration of the operation, it was announced to the village of Koptiaki that Czechs were hiding in the forest, tht the forest would be searched, and that on no account should anyone from the village go anywhere.  It was ordered to shoot on the spot anyone who happened to break into the cordoned--off area.

Meanwhile, dawn came (this was already the third day, the 18th).  The thought was to bury some of the corpses right then and there by the mine.  We began to dig a pit and almost finished digging it out.  But just then a peasant acquaintance of Yermakov's drove up, and it turned out he had been able to see the pit.  That effort had to be abandoned.  It was decided to take the corpses to the deep mines.  Because the carts were flimsy and falling apart, the comm. left for town to get motor vehicles (a truck and two motorcars, one for the Chekists).  The carts had broken down earlier and the vehicles were needed for transport to the deep mines, but in fact the vehicles could not make it to the place of temporary burial and that was why the carts still had to be used.  When the vehicles arrived, the carts were already moving--the vehicles met them a  quarter mile closer to Koptaiaki  .  We could not begin the trip until 9 o'clock at night.  We crossed the railroad tracks and, a quarter of a mile later, we moved the corpses onto the truck.  We drove with difficulty, paving the hazardous places with railway ties, but we still got stuck a few times.  Around 4:40 in the morning of the 19th, one of the vehicles got completely stuck.  Since we had not reached the mine, it was necessary to either bury or burn the corpses.  One conrade, whose last name the comm. has forgotten, promised to take the latter upon himself but left without carrying out his promise.

We wanted to burn A. [Aleksei] and A.F., but by mistake the lady-in-waiting [he maid Demidova] ws burnt with A. instead.  We then immediately buried the remains under the fire and lit the fire again, which comletely covered up traces of the digging.  Meanwhile, we dug a common grave for the rest.  A pit around 6 feet deep and 8 feet square was ready by around 7 o'clock in the morning.  We piled the corpses in the pit, poured sulfuric acid onto their faces and generally over their whole bodies to prevent them both from being recognized and from stinking as a results of decomposition (the pit was not deep).  Having thrown dirt and brushwood on top, we put down railroad ties and drove over them a few times--no traces of the pit wer left.  The secret was completely safe;  the Whites didn't find this burial place.

Koptiaki is 12 miles from Yekaterinburg.  The R.R. crosses mile 6 between Koptiaki and the Upper Isetsk factory to the northwest [of town].  The burial place is 700 feet closer to the U. Isetsk factory from te point of intersection.<<

Note: The authors stated that the Russian measurement in the document had been converted to U. S. Measurements.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Other
« Reply #164 on: August 25, 2005, 01:29:30 PM »
Yurovsky's 1934 testimony can be found at:
http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/yurovmurder.html

Quote
Thread on photographs of Yurovsky:
http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=lastdays;action=display;num=1116078071

The following has a brief personal history of Yurovsky:
http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/yurovski_bio.html

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AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152