Author Topic: NEW LETTERS about Ella and Wilhelm  (Read 7542 times)

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Offline Bambi

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Re: NEW LETTERS about Ella and Wilhelm
« Reply #30 on: December 26, 2017, 05:30:09 AM »
Bambi

At that time 13-14 was not necessarily too young for royal parents to decide on a match for their daughter - witness Friedrich III and young Victoria. Marie of Edinburgh and Coburg subsequently made an arrangement marriage to Ferdinand of Romania when she was 17.

I was busy writing that 13-14 would, however, be considered too young for romance, when I remembered that Field Marshal Montgomery's parents got engaged when his mother was 14 and married when she was 16, around 1880 (Montgomery's eldest brother was just old enough to take part in the later stages of the South African War of 1889-1902, which would put his birth in 1883). Mrs Montgomery was a daughter of Dean Farrar, a leading clergyman of the day and author of the morality tale Eric, or Little by Little and her beloved was her father's curate and 18 years older than she was. I wonder whether the fact that Henry Montgomery was a mature and steady man was a crucial difference between Maud Farrar and Ella.

Whatever Ella's feelings towards Wilhelm early in 1878, the crisis of December would certainly have put them out of her head.

Ann

Thanks for the information, Ann. And yes, I agree, whatever Ella's feelings may have been towards Wilhelm in the beginning, such feelings or romance or a potential engagement/marriage would have been the least of her worries with the deaths of her mother and youngest sister. On top of that, whatever type of "wrongful deed" that Queen Victoria was referring to on Wilhelm's part against Ella wouldn't have helped, either.

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: NEW LETTERS about Ella and Wilhelm
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2017, 03:04:19 AM »
Maud Montgomery was born in 1864, so her engagement took place in 1878, exactly contemporaneous with Ella's affection for Wilhelm, however far it went. I imagine the 'wrongful deed' was no more than a kiss.

Maud Montgomery later became a most formidable female. She is best known for rescuing the future Field Marshal's army career in its earliest stages, by interceding with the Commandant of Sandhurst to prevent young Montgomery from being expelled in disgrace after setting fire to a fellow-cadet's shirt tails!

Ann

Offline Bambi

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Re: NEW LETTERS about Ella and Wilhelm
« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2017, 05:28:49 AM »
Maud Montgomery was born in 1864, so her engagement took place in 1878, exactly contemporaneous with Ella's affection for Wilhelm, however far it went. I imagine the 'wrongful deed' was no more than a kiss.

Maud Montgomery later became a most formidable female. She is best known for rescuing the future Field Marshal's army career in its earliest stages, by interceding with the Commandant of Sandhurst to prevent young Montgomery from being expelled in disgrace after setting fire to a fellow-cadet's shirt tails!

Ann

If we were to take the letters as being 100% authentic - I got the impression from a few of Ella's 1878 letters that a kiss (an intimate one) may have already happened. Just the impression that I get!

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: NEW LETTERS about Ella and Wilhelm
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2017, 11:45:37 AM »
I agree. IF the letters are authentic, then a kiss presumably happened in the spring or early summer of 1878.

Ann

Offline Bambi

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Re: NEW LETTERS about Ella and Wilhelm
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2017, 08:58:40 PM »
In regards to Wilhelm’s wrongful deed against Ella that the Queen was referring to - you don’t think Wilhelm would have gone so far as to inappropriately touch Ella, do you? I originally thought that she may have been referring to Wilhelm declaring his love for Ella and proposing to her, but then I began to think that it may have been something else, as openly expressing your love and proposing marriage isn’t really something to be considered wrong and something that Wilhelm should be so overwhelmed by with distress, cry, wonder how he would face Louis and Alice when he would next see them and “spoil his chances” which were likely to have been reconsidered otherwise by Ella... Unless the Queen may have been referring to the inappropriate timing given that the entire Hessian family were deadly ill? But like I said, I couldn’t help but wonder if Wilhelm may have inappropriately touched/molested Ella, since a number of her letters (if authentic) suggest that they may have already kissed on at least one occasion and Ella already knew of Wilhelm’s romantic interest in her (and may have reciprocated it)...

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: NEW LETTERS about Ella and Wilhelm
« Reply #35 on: December 28, 2017, 04:18:20 AM »
Given the moral standards of the time, I think kissing is a possibility. Since Ella was only 14 and they were first cousins, her parents may have assumed there was no need for chaperoning. Then one of them walked in on a kiss!

Ann

Offline CountessKate

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Re: NEW LETTERS about Ella and Wilhelm
« Reply #36 on: December 28, 2017, 12:43:21 PM »
I was wondering if the wrongful deed was an attempt by Wilhelm to get Ella to make some sort of secret engagement.  Given that his marriage was a matter of state, he would not have been in any position to redeem his own promise, while she would have been put in the very compromising and unmaidenly position of being committed to deceive her family.  Given that the two sets of parents had arranged marriages with highly supervised engagements, and two heads of state were involved, this was likely to be considered by them to be very inappropriate behaviour on both a political and personal level.  It might also explain why Queen Victoria assured Vicky "that Alice never wished to catch Willie, for I know she did not" - suggesting that Vicky suspected matrimonial lures had been laid for Wilhelm.

Offline Bambi

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Re: NEW LETTERS about Ella and Wilhelm
« Reply #37 on: December 28, 2017, 02:04:47 PM »
That actually sounds very plausible, too! I had been thinking of something more physical, but that is a very logical theory.

It’s more than likely that we will never find out for sure and can only speculate, just as has been done with other certain aspects of Ella’s life...

Maybe Queen_Missy might have more things to share...

Offline DNAgenie

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Re: NEW LETTERS about Ella and Wilhelm
« Reply #38 on: December 28, 2017, 07:44:20 PM »
Quote
If we were to take the letters as being 100% authentic - I got the impression from a few of Ella's 1878 letters that a kiss (an intimate one) may have already happened. Just the impression that I get!

Putting the worst possible interpretation on all this, I think Willy actually seduced Ella in March but that she did not realize the full significance of his actions until some time later, when she found out she was pregnant. Then all hell would have broken loose! Ella was sent away to her grandmother for the birth, and probably her mother intended to be present, but Alice was prevented when the rest of the children developed diphtheria.

Offline Bambi

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Re: NEW LETTERS about Ella and Wilhelm
« Reply #39 on: December 28, 2017, 08:32:08 PM »
Quote
If we were to take the letters as being 100% authentic - I got the impression from a few of Ella's 1878 letters that a kiss (an intimate one) may have already happened. Just the impression that I get!

Putting the worst possible interpretation on all this, I think Willy actually seduced Ella in March but that she did not realize the full significance of his actions until some time later, when she found out she was pregnant. Then all hell would have broken loose! Ella was sent away to her grandmother for the birth, and probably her mother intended to be present, but Alice was prevented when the rest of the children developed diphtheria.

I think that would indeed be the worst possible interpretation. I just couldn't imagine Ella as a thirteen-year-old girl (or at any age, for that matter) having physical relations with someone and being impregnated out of wedlock.

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: NEW LETTERS about Ella and Wilhelm
« Reply #40 on: December 29, 2017, 04:20:01 AM »
Wilhelm II has had a bad press for very good reasons, but seducing his 13-year-old cousin would be going too far even for him.

Countess Kate's suggestion does sound a definite possibility.

Ann

Offline Превед

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Re: NEW LETTERS about Ella and Wilhelm
« Reply #41 on: December 29, 2017, 06:27:29 AM »
Wilhelm II has had a bad press for very good reasons, but seducing his 13-year-old cousin would be going too far even for him.

Hypothetically, imagine if their grandmother Queen Victoria found out about this! The Russian Revolution would look like a tea party compared to her passive-aggressive dynastic Victorian crusader wrath!
« Last Edit: December 29, 2017, 06:29:52 AM by Превед »
Березы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и березы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline Bambi

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Re: NEW LETTERS about Ella and Wilhelm
« Reply #42 on: December 29, 2017, 06:30:55 AM »
I must say that I think that the letters - again, if authentic - have been delightful to read. Ella, as beautiful and admirable as she may have been, strikes me as a very enigmatic figure, an individual whom it is easy to look at but difficult to truly see, someone who wouldn't share her deepest thoughts and emotions so easily with anybody. Thus, any correspondence of hers is a real treat. Her letters, especially those prior to her becoming a nun, suggest a girly, playful and flirtatious personality.

Wilhelm II has had a bad press for very good reasons, but seducing his 13-year-old cousin would be going too far even for him.

I definitely agree! Regardless of his character, he must have been aware of the boundaries and it's more than likely that it wouldn't have ever even occurred to him to do something that was so totally off limits.

Offline Превед

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Re: NEW LETTERS about Ella and Wilhelm
« Reply #43 on: December 29, 2017, 01:16:04 PM »
I definitely agree! Regardless of his character, he must have been aware of the boundaries and it's more than likely that it wouldn't have ever even occurred to him to do something that was so totally off limits.

If there is no evidence of WII indulging in common girls that were easily obtainable for someone in his position (ladies of more or less easy virtue surrounding the male body of students (pun intended) in Bonn, which, according to Röhl, I don't think there really is (I've only read about an inn staffed with two seductresses in the Alps set up as a kind of a moral / spy / blackmail trap once when he was invited to Austria for a hunt with the imperial family as a young man, perhaps when he already was engaged) - and adding to that the heavy dose of guilt-infusing moral upbringing about purity, love, sex, body angst etc. that was beaten into him by his mother and Hinzpeter, then I think it would be extremely unlikely for him to molest a young cousin he was in love with at that age. Remember that he already was very familiar with strict self control due to his arm issue. It would take someone far more sinister, repressed and pedophile (shades of Serguey Alexandrovich) to even play with such desires.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2017, 01:18:41 PM by Превед »
Березы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и березы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline Превед

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Re: NEW LETTERS about Ella and Wilhelm
« Reply #44 on: December 29, 2017, 01:31:40 PM »
I just couldn't imagine Ella as a thirteen-year-old girl (or at any age, for that matter) having physical relations with someone and being impregnated out of wedlock.

Quote
Her letters, especially those prior to her becoming a nun, suggest a girly, playful and flirtatious personality.

Even though one can perfectly be playful and flirtatious without ending up impregnated by every man that catches one's fancy, I spot a certain contradiction suggestive of a madonna vs. whore complex in your comments, my lady. :-)
« Last Edit: December 29, 2017, 01:35:41 PM by Превед »
Березы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и березы», 1843 / 1856)