Author Topic: NEW LETTERS about Ella and Wilhelm  (Read 10101 times)

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Offline Kalafrana

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Re: NEW LETTERS about Ella and Wilhelm
« Reply #60 on: April 18, 2018, 04:05:16 AM »

'Royal princes were not properly brought up. They sowed their wild oats in all directions and usually got away with it. As in this case.'

Wilhelm's parents had certainly endeavoured to bring him up properly. If you read Rohl, his mother showered him with advice by letter, literally from everything from how to clean his teeth onwards. No doubt he reacted against it to some extent, but seducing a 13-year-old cousin would be a step too far.

And what about Queen Victoria's reaction? We only have to think of her horror at the Prince of Wales's episode with Nellie Cliften(sp.?). Wilhelm was her eldest grandson, a future Emperor. Keeping him on the straight and narrow was a most serious business.

I agree entirely with Bambi that we need to know more about the provenance of these letters.

Ann

Offline Превед

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Re: NEW LETTERS about Ella and Wilhelm
« Reply #61 on: April 19, 2018, 04:11:45 AM »
Royal princes were not properly brought up. They sowed their wild oats in all directions and usually got away with it. As in this case.

My impression is that their "hunting grounds" usually were limited to actresses, dancers, singers etc. of the stage. It's extremely rare to find the one night stands with peasant girls, tavern waitresses, maids and common prostitutes that popular imagination often conjures up. These were the victims of the (lower) nobility and bourgeoisie in the 19th century.
Берёзы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и берёзы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline DNAgenie

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Re: NEW LETTERS about Ella and Wilhelm
« Reply #62 on: April 20, 2018, 07:06:35 PM »
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My impression is that their "hunting grounds" usually were limited to actresses, dancers, singers etc. of the stage. It's extremely rare to find the one night stands with peasant girls, tavern waitresses, maids and common prostitutes that popular imagination often conjures up. These were the victims of the (lower) nobility and bourgeoisie in the 19th century.

Royal princes could set their sights much higher than that. They were more likely to seduce members of their own households (or those of their relatives) or the aristocracy, and it was not unknown for them to extend their attentions to female relatives. These episodes rarely reached the general public but they happened, and research in old family records reveals a number of these.

Offline Jeremiah

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Re: NEW LETTERS about Ella and Wilhelm
« Reply #63 on: April 20, 2018, 11:46:02 PM »
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research in old family records reveals a number of these.

Could you give us a few examples from these records since there's a number of such reports there?

Offline DNAgenie

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Re: NEW LETTERS about Ella and Wilhelm
« Reply #64 on: April 22, 2018, 04:12:33 PM »
See reply 53 above.

Offline HessianPrincess

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Re: NEW LETTERS about Ella and Wilhelm
« Reply #65 on: August 05, 2018, 03:50:37 PM »
Intriguing theory. I suppose anything is possible, but like many of the other posters, I would like to know more about the provenance and authenticity of these letters. And I also agree that the topic(s) discussed in one letter may or may not have anything to do with those discussed in the other. To read these letters and conclude that Wilhelm impregnated his 13-year-old cousin is quite a leap, in my opinion. Not impossible, but how probable? The questions that keep going through my mind are as follows:

1. Would either Wilhelm or Ella have been so careless as to risk something like this? These are not the proverbial teens "outside the Tastee Freeze" in the immortal words of John Mellencamp. The stakes would have been very, very high. At 13, Ella would have hardly been in a position to consent to this - either because she would have been ignorant (which I sort of doubt given Alice's attitude toward things) or, more likely, she would have known the consequences of behaving in such a way given the mores of the time and of her class. Not to mention 13-year-old girls are not emotionally ready to handle such things. If she didn't consent, that would make Wilhelm guilty of sexual assault. On his cousin. Who was 13. And who, by all accounts, he cared deeply about (and I do think there probably was a mutual "crush" going on, and probably even an innocent kiss or two "behind the hothouse"). There were likely plenty of women around who would have been more than willing to meet any "needs" he may have had. Again, the stakes for both would have been so high; would it have been worth the risk? I know things like this did happen (Thyra of Denmark), but Ella was so, so young. And typically these things don't take 140 years to come to light.

2. Queen Victoria's attitude in both letters is fairly casual. I cannot imagine her being supportive of Wilhelm had he confessed to sleeping with and impregnating Ella. Neither he nor Ella would have gotten off easily. Both of their reputations would have been ruined; even if it was hidden and the public unaware, family members would have known. Ella would have been branded a certain way amongst her family, would she not? They may not have come out and directly mentioned it, but I doubt you would have seen them praise her as a paragon of virtue and goodness, which they did. Her marriage prospects would have dwindled severely. And Wilhelm certainly would have faced some sort of consequences, as well.

3. I can't imagine QV being so careless as to write (i.e. document) Ella giving birth to an illegitimate child (or two). She would have instructed her daughter to burn this letter.

4. Would a birth (of twins, no less) to a (barely) 14-year-old girl really only have taken 4 hours? Even if they were premature, which they would have had to have been if she saw Wilhelm in April and they were born in late November. What happened to them?

5. Wouldn't Ella have been more psychologically affected by such an event? During this time frame, she seems to have been focused on writing letters and sending paintings she had done home to cheer up her ailing family members. I can't imagine a young teen would have the where-with-all to do that in the midst of giving birth to illegitimate babies who were a product of a sexual assault by her cousin, and who would have been given away or died. Is there any evidence in her later behavior that points to her experiencing such trauma? I suppose one could argue her (alleged) resentful attitude toward GD Paul's children could stem partially from this. Or certain aspects of her relationship with Sergei. Or her strictness in forbidding Maria Pavlovna to read certain novels she felt were too "racy".

6. I believe Ella was in England with her family in the summer of 1878, and attended events in public with VMH. There are also photos of her dated 1878 (when in 1878, I don't know). If she were pregnant, wouldn't this have been noticeable by at least the last part of the summer?

I am just finding it hard to make this leap, though I admit anything is possible. The thought about QV's letter referencing menstruation is a possibility, but I am not sure where the 4 hours would come in. Do we know whether Ella had any other medical or dental procedures done while she was staying with her grandmother? I am thinking something along the lines of having teeth pulled or the like. Or maybe she had a sore throat or fever for a few hours and they were worried she was coming down with diptheria, too, but it wasn't. She was healthy and had an "easy" time of it compared to what was going on with the rest of her family. That to me seems more likely than a clandestine birth. It is all very interesting. Has it ever been documented why she was sent to her grandmother's in the first place, beyond just not wanting her to get sick? (And why weren't any of the others sent - were they already all sick by the time Ella left? What was the timing between when VMH came down with it, when Ella left, and when the others came down with it?) My curiosity is piqued, for sure. But without any more evidence than this, it is hard to make this claim.

Offline HessianPrincess

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Re: NEW LETTERS about Ella and Wilhelm
« Reply #66 on: August 15, 2018, 09:29:20 AM »
I apologize for my lengthy and probably obnoxious post. I was just thinking out loud.  And the more I think about it, the less I believe it to be true.  Quite honestly, it would be considered blasphemous for Orthodox Christians (and I am one) to even consider this a possibility. She is a saint of the Church, and this sort of thing would not have remained hidden. Therefore, I cannot believe it to be true. There is no evidence of anything. God forgive me for even momentarily entertaining the thought . . .

I do look forward to hearing more about these letters, though, from a historical perspective. I just won't let my imagination run away with me again.  From both a historical and spiritual point of view, allowing that to happen is not good.

Offline Bambi

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Re: NEW LETTERS about Ella and Wilhelm
« Reply #67 on: Yesterday at 06:00:41 AM »
I find it quite unlikely that anything more will be heard or said about these letters. There’s a probability that they’re nothing more than mere fabrication.