Author Topic: Were the Jews Responsible for the Russian Revolution/Bolsehvik Coup?  (Read 11839 times)

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Offline edubs31

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Re: Were the Jews Responsible for the Russian Revolution/Bolsehvik Coup?
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2016, 01:16:51 AM »
NicholasG I can get behind a good deal of what you present here. "Culture" is certainly a important distinction that often gets overlooked or intentionally ignored for some of the reasons you've stated.

Culture also likely explains why black Americans weren't, by-and-large, coerced into aligning with communist movements in the 20th century. But of course why would they? History shows us that while Jews have often chosen the path of assimilation into the majority gentile society they live, blacks have usually opted to form their own cultural niche and aggressively reject assimilation (Of course skin color makes it easier for Jews to assimilate in the first place).

But that doesn't mean African-Americans have taken oppression sitting down...just the opposite. The Civil Rights movement certainly hasn't been quiet or devoid of energy and, at times, violence.

I think a lot of blacks make a conscious effort to distance themselves from mainstream white dominated society. At the risk of getting off track here I think of the music example. African Americans have made incredible contributions to nearky all genres of music...finding a huge amount of artistic and commercial success through the decades. Hip-Hop and its explosion in the early-80s, as many will tell you, is the direct result of music they once called their own - soul, blues, rock & roll, funk, disco, etc. - getting compromised by the predominantly white masses. In search of something different. Something unique, liberating and quintessentially "black" they created Rap. The perfect (for the time) anti-establishment outlet for self/cultural expression.

You mention the Communists, despite their efforts, failing to draw large numbers of blacks into their inner-circle. True, but again the anti-assimilation stance of many in the black community would seem to make a political movement born in Europe and led by white intellectuals a difficult sell, yes? And speaking of the proletariat socialists who many working-class blacks could probably find common ground with under ideal circumstances, I think the problem you have there is racism and nativism. How many factory workers in the US during the roughly 75-years post-Civil War and pre-WW2 were excited over the prospects of a mass influx of blacks into their urban neighborhoods and a threat to their jobs and livelihood?

Communism failed but certainly Islam didn't. The Black Muslims were powerful cultural and political movements in the 60s and they still have many adherents today. About as noisy and anti-establishment as it gets.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right...

Offline Превед

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Re: Were the Jews Responsible for the Russian Revolution/Bolsehvik Coup?
« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2016, 09:56:57 PM »
Interesting exposť from both sides, and especially from NicolasG, of an old question.

My two cents: Wasn't the Pale of Settlement a very strange environment? I'm thinking especially of the parallell paths of the Yiddish-speaking, discriminated Jews in their shtetls with their higher than Russian-average literacy rate (?) and their Messianic beliefs in salvation and a new homeland - and the old, native, Catholic, Polish-speaking gentry in the same area, who seem to have resented, resisted and outright rebelled against their Russian oppressors (Piłsudski and Dzerzhinsky), mixing anarchist and Socialist ideas with Messianic nationalism in an even stranger mix than many Jews. While the Lithuanian (and especially) Belarusian and Ukrainian peasants just went about their daily business, it seems, their Jewish neighbours and Polish landlords were very busy planning to topple the existing world order and creating a new one.

Quote
"...It is possible that Lewendal, the head of the Kishinev secret police, to whom rumor attributed the immediate engineering of the April pogrom, played a double part; that, having prepared the pogrom with one hand, with the other he wrote to the Department of State Police the report, which I saw when I looked up the case- at the department, giving warning of possible disorders...."
Thank you, for enlightening me about the continued existence of the once royal Danish morganauts Danneskiold-LÝvendahl in the Russian Empire! And what a fascinatingly sinister role that last LÝvendahl in Tsarist service played!

Speaking of which: In all my readings about Tsarist officials and especially foreigners like Germans, Baltic Germans, Finlanders etc. it has struck me that in contrast to the overwhelming amount of Tsarist chinovniks with German backgrounds, there is rather far between the Poles. Unlike the Jews, they could become state officials, but it does seem like they actively resisted, despite making up one of the largest populations and elites of the empire besides the Russians. At least they resisted doing much in Russian service outside their old Polish-Lithuanian comfort zone. Which begets the question: Why did the Jews become focused on Russia as a whole (and changing the regime in Russia) instead of dreaming of seceding from the Empire, like the Poles? It was obvious that the Russians did not like Jews, so Poland was historically the more tolerant alternative. A more westward-oriented reunited Poland with large German minorities would also linguistically harmonize better with the Yiddish-speaking Jews.

Not stepping down from my Danish hobby horse quite yet!
Quote
And is the fact that a John Adams or Alexander Hamilton didn't have slaves a testament to their egalitarian principles or simply a product of their upbringing, in mostly anti-slavery northern states?
Alexander Hamilton's childhood was spent in the Carribean: On the British island Nevis and in the Danish West Indies (today: US Virgin Islands), where slavery wasn't abolished untill 1834 and 1848. Perhaps a certain knowledge of negerhollandsk (= Negro Dutch, the slave creole in the Danish West Indies) endeared him to his Knickerbocker-Dutch Schuyler bride? :-)
« Last Edit: December 16, 2016, 10:14:24 PM by Превед »
Березы севера мне милы,ó
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: ęИвы и березыĽ, 1843 / 1856)

Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Were the Jews Responsible for the Russian Revolution/Bolsehvik Coup?
« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2016, 05:49:31 PM »
I have some comments and errata on this subject;

The Kishinev Pogrom of 1903 the governor Von Raben who was either friendly to Jews as in the book "Easter in Kishinev" or anti-Semitic as in "Pogrom" . "Easter in Kishinev" has him not realizing a pogrom was going on and not doing anything about it until it was too late. Von Raben was fired and was not given a pension.

After this Pleve sent out a "Nastygram" to all govenors to prevent such out breaks. Later on in this year there was a Pogrom in Gomel where fewer people died. This is because the police chief realized that a Pogrom was going to happen and a regiment of Infantry arrived quickly and put a stop to it. Also the local jews had armed themselves and were able to hold the Pogromists off until help arrived.

Aunt Olga is Olga K Queen of Greece not Olga A the Tsar's sister.

Other things you have to look at when looking at Pogroms are the social, economic, political ect problems that were effecting the Russian Empire during this period. They were huge and no one in the Russian government could really understand them.

Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Were the Jews Responsible for the Russian Revolution/Bolsehvik Coup?
« Reply #33 on: December 19, 2016, 06:18:45 PM »
Nicholas II and anti-Semitism is a complicated subject. He was somewhat anti-sematic but most all Russian men of his era were. I would say he was less of a Anti-Semite than your average Russian. After he read the books by Ivan Bliokh, A Jew on what a blood bath a major European war would be and he predicted it accurately. Nicholas called the Hague peace conference and was in the running for the Nobel peace prize. Nicholas hired Moisei Ginsberg, A Jew to supply the Russian Baltic Fleet on its epic and nightmarish voyage to the Far east where it was destroyed by the Japanese. Then there is Dmitri Rubinstein. He was Alexandra's fiscal advisor. managed Grand duke Kiril Vs esate and gave a number of other Grand Dukes fiscal advise. Nicholas made this man a "Actual State Councilor" equal to the army rank of Major General. He and his fellow Jewish banker I Manus were good friends with Rasputin who spoke out in the defense of jews and other minorities.
 As for Protecols when it came out Nicholas had the Gendarmes check it out and they reported it was a forgery. Nicholas wrote "Drop Protocols
one cannot defend a pure cause by dirty methods" The copy he was reading in 1918 was sent to Alexandra by a friend. Why he was reading it when he knew it was a forgery I don't know. It could be he just could not understand how Russia fell apart like it did and how a group of people like Lenin and the Bolsheviks got into power. Note : Nicholas reguarded them, as a group of German agents. May be he thought he could get some insites from reading this book. Or it could be he was bored and read this book because he needed something to read.
 I should also point out that most/all the major Russian newspapers of the period if they printed anything about Jews it was usually bad.

Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Were the Jews Responsible for the Russian Revolution/Bolsehvik Coup?
« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2016, 06:35:50 PM »
Soon after he became Minister of the Interior Protopopov and was given the power to run the goverment by Nicholas and Alexandra one of the first things he did was call for the abolishment of the Pale settlement and the anti-Semtic laws in Russia. It should be pointed out that the Russian army rounded up and deported millions of people including many Jews into the Russian interior. If these people hated the Russian goverment before they sure despised it after this. It also left the Russian goverment with over 6 million refugees to care for which greatly contributed to the breakdown of the goverment during the winter of 1916/1917. So you can say the Russian generals played a major role in destroying their own goverment  and country and we should not keep  blaming Alexandra and Rasputin for this. It should be pointed out that many Russians were in favor of the Anti-Semtic laws on the books and some thought them to weak. I should also point out that doing away with these laws was part of the Progressive block of the Duma's agenda. In reading what Sandro wrote on this Nicholas seemed confused about what was going on. granted Nicholas was one very tired man at this point and may not have realized what was going on. Or it could be a case of Protopopov thought he had the approval to do this. We may never know the full story because all three who knew this Nicholas, Alexandra and Protopopov ended up geting murdered.

Offline NicolasG

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Re: Were the Jews Responsible for the Russian Revolution/Bolsehvik Coup?
« Reply #35 on: December 21, 2016, 01:17:29 PM »
As for Protecols when it came out Nicholas had the Gendarmes check it out and they reported it was a forgery. Nicholas wrote "Drop Protocols
one cannot defend a pure cause by dirty methods" The copy he was reading in 1918 was sent to Alexandra by a friend.

Could you please cite the source for this and for Protopopov's intention of granting legal equality to Russian Jews? I would like to find some books which focused on the final years before the revolution without extreme anti-tsarist bias.

Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Were the Jews Responsible for the Russian Revolution/Bolsehvik Coup?
« Reply #36 on: December 21, 2016, 04:07:13 PM »
Nicholas on Protocols being a forgery is from Ron Moe's book on Rasputin.

Protopopov's intentions of doing away with the anti-semtic laws is from the book "The Russian Revolution" R Pipes. There is another book I believe mentions this but I can't remember the title.

Offline Ellie

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Re: Were the Jews Responsible for the Russian Revolution/Bolsehvik Coup?
« Reply #37 on: December 22, 2016, 12:15:58 AM »
I really wish the Jews hadn't been mixed up with the Bolsheviks at all. I'm now in the middle of Princess Paley's Memories of Russia where she never failed to point out the Semitic types amongst the Bolsheviks.
Upon describing how the brutes opened up her bank vault with her jewelry, her description is as follows:

He [Colonel Petrokow] saw the eyes of the covetous Israelites sparkle at the sight of these splendours which shone forth in all their splendour from out of their ancient caskets.

And then continued the imagery:

Nevertheless, on this occasion they were all put away properly, Colonel Petrokow was given the keys of the two safes, but the Commissaries with the long, black, curly locks did not forget where the treasure was kept! . . .


« Last Edit: December 22, 2016, 12:23:38 AM by Ellie »

Offline Ellie

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Re: Were the Jews Responsible for the Russian Revolution/Bolsehvik Coup?
« Reply #38 on: December 22, 2016, 01:10:20 AM »
Upon being called to appear before Petrograd Extraordinary Commission, it was decided that Vladimir, not baring the name of Romanov, should remain at home. Princess Paley thus stated:

But we counted without the hateful cleverness of the Jews and their extraordinary methods of getting together information.

Offline Ellie

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Re: Were the Jews Responsible for the Russian Revolution/Bolsehvik Coup?
« Reply #39 on: December 22, 2016, 01:30:36 AM »
I would just like to add that however understandable the antipathy of the Jews towards the Tsarist regime, their participation in the Bolshevik movement is, I feel, a stain on the Jewish heritage. Moreover, their behavior therein is out of keeping with all Jewish morals foremost of which is "Thou shalt not kill".

Offline NicolasG

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Re: Were the Jews Responsible for the Russian Revolution/Bolsehvik Coup?
« Reply #40 on: December 22, 2016, 08:30:52 AM »
Nicholas on Protocols being a forgery is from Ron Moe's book on Rasputin.

Protopopov's intentions of doing away with the anti-semtic laws is from the book "The Russian Revolution" R Pipes. There is another book I believe mentions this but I can't remember the title.

"On assuming office, Protopopov drew up a liberal reform program, centered on the abolition of the Pale of Settlement and the other Jewish disabilities - a long overdue move, but hardly at the heart of Russia's converns, the more so that the mass expulsions of Jews from the front zone had the effect of lifting the Pale. The proposal, meant to meet one of the demands of the Progressive Bloc, was inspired by Rasputin, who favored equality for Jews... He neither thought out nor pursued any of these plans. A few weeks after taking over the ministry, he met with the opposition in the hope of agreeing on a joint course of actions, but this endeavor, too, had no result."
Richard Pipes, The Russian Revolution, p.249

The problem is that Pipes is relying here in Soviet secundary sources: Chermenskii's IV Duma (Moscow, 1976) and Diakin's Russkaia burzhuaziia (Leningrad, 1967). Soviet historians had to follow the Party line (the Communist Party, no adjective needed, it was the only one). Without access to the books, I do not know what the spin is, but certainly there is spin.

On the other hand, Pipes seems to be admitting that by that time (late 1916) the liberal opposition (the main heroes in Pipes' book) had chosen a path of direct confrontation with the tsarist government, instead of cooperation to solve the problems created by the war. So they were  unwilling to discuss with the tsarist authorities even how to implement points of their own program. The aptitude and the ability of those Russian liberals to control forces they have helped unleash became clear after the February revolution. 

Offline NicolasG

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Re: Were the Jews Responsible for the Russian Revolution/Bolsehvik Coup?
« Reply #41 on: December 22, 2016, 08:50:36 AM »
I would just like to add that however understandable the antipathy of the Jews towards the Tsarist regime, their participation in the Bolshevik movement is, I feel, a stain on the Jewish heritage. Moreover, their behavior therein is out of keeping with all Jewish morals foremost of which is "Thou shalt not kill".

Many Jews took part in the bolshevist crimes. That is a fact. But that does not mean that THE Jews who lived in Russia or anywhere else in the world around 1917 were responsible for those crimes or that the Jews who live today in Russia or anywhere in the world are responsible for those crimes. We are talking about thousands of Jews among a population of several millions.

In the same way, we cannot accuse THE Germans of being responsible for the Holocaust, the current Germans or those who lived in Gemany from 1933-1945. Even the millions who voted for Hitler in 1932 did not want a world war and death camps. Thousands of Germans took part in the exterminations of Jews, gypsies and people the Nazis decided that did not deserve to live, others knew about it and approved it; others knew about it, did not approve it but did nothing to stop it out of fear about what might happen to them or their families; other Germans risked their lifes to oppose the Nazi atrocities: Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Sophie Scholl and many others.

So we cannot speak about German collective guilt and it is wrong to use the Holocaust as a stick to beat the Germans every time we disagree with them about something, be it the Euro or the refugee crisis. In the same way, we cannot speak of "Jewish bolshevism".

Offline NicolasG

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Re: Were the Jews Responsible for the Russian Revolution/Bolsehvik Coup?
« Reply #42 on: December 22, 2016, 10:17:02 AM »
I am going to translate a fragment from a book written by a Austrian Jewish writer, Joseph Roth, Tarabas. Ein Gast auf dieser Erde. It is much better in the original: neither German nor English are my mother tongues.

"Among those pitiful Jews was the caretaker of the synagogue Schemarjah, who was the unluckiest of all of them. Everyboy knew his woe. He had become a widower many years ago and he had only one son. Yes, he had! He could no longer call his child his son , since he - still during the war - had spat on his father and had announced the intention of becoming a revolutionist. Certainly it was Schermarjah's, the father's, fault: he had saved some two hundred rubles, so his son could study. The foolish caretaker of the synagogue of Koropta had wished once to see his son a cultured man, a doctor in Medicine or Law. What had the result of this vain venture been? A rebellious schoolchild, who slapped a teacher and was expelled from school, became an apprentice with a watchmaker, established a revolutionary "circle" in Koropta, rejected God, read books and proclaimed the dominance of the proletariat. Although he was feeble, like his father, and the soldiers did not want him, he enlisted himself as a volunteer during the war, not in order to defend the tsar, but, as he proclaimed, to "get rid of the powerful". In addition he claimed that he did not believe in God, that God was only an invention of the Tsar and the rabbis. "But you are a Jew?", asked the old Schermarjah, "No, father", replied the terrible son, "I am not a Jew!".
He left the house, went to the army and wrote, after the first revolution had broken out, a last letter to his old father. He let his father know that he would never come back. He could consider him as dead and buried.
Schemarjah considered him as dead, kept mourning seven days, as it is written, and was no longer a father."

I have translated this fragment from a German edition, but the book is available in English with the title Tarabas: A Guest on Earth.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2016, 10:19:02 AM by NicolasG »

Offline Ellie

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Re: Were the Jews Responsible for the Russian Revolution/Bolsehvik Coup?
« Reply #43 on: December 22, 2016, 03:43:08 PM »

Why did the Jews become focused on Russia as a whole (and changing the regime in Russia) instead of dreaming of seceding from the Empire, like the Poles? It was obvious that the Russians did not like Jews, so Poland was historically the more tolerant alternative. A more westward-oriented reunited Poland with large German minorities would also linguistically harmonize better with the Yiddish-speaking Jews.

This has also been puzzling me. Why were the Jews so focused on redeeming Russia where they didn't seem to be very welcome? In Witte's memoirs, he mentions a Polish gentleman complaining about the Jews coming to Poland after the Kishenev programs claiming that the Russian Jews were corrupting the well behaved Polish Jews with revolutionary ideas.
For my 2 cents, why didn't they just pack up and leave and go to America where they could live a freer life; or, for the more idealistically passionate contingent, the Palestine option was there by the end of the 19th Century. 
« Last Edit: December 22, 2016, 03:45:18 PM by Ellie »

Offline NicolasG

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Re: Were the Jews Responsible for the Russian Revolution/Bolsehvik Coup?
« Reply #44 on: December 22, 2016, 05:40:55 PM »

Why did the Jews become focused on Russia as a whole (and changing the regime in Russia) instead of dreaming of seceding from the Empire, like the Poles? It was obvious that the Russians did not like Jews, so Poland was historically the more tolerant alternative. A more westward-oriented reunited Poland with large German minorities would also linguistically harmonize better with the Yiddish-speaking Jews.

This has also been puzzling me. Why were the Jews so focused on redeeming Russia where they didn't seem to be very welcome? In Witte's memoirs, he mentions a Polish gentleman complaining about the Jews coming to Poland after the Kishenev programs claiming that the Russian Jews were corrupting the well behaved Polish Jews with revolutionary ideas.
For my 2 cents, why didn't they just pack up and leave and go to America where they could live a freer life; or, for the more idealistically passionate contingent, the Palestine option was there by the end of the 19th Century.

First, many Russian Jews did go to America, that is the origin of the Jewish community in New York, for example.

Palestine was not much of an option, it was part of the Turkish Empire and the Turkish authorities would not be too willing to allow the arrival of millions of Jews, which might clash with the local arab population and try to create an state of their own (as they did afterwards, under the British administration).

One of the alternatives was emigration to Argentina, a sparsely populated country that received many European inmigrants before WWI. Theodor Herzl, the founder of Zionism, considered this option for a Jewish homeland but only a small minority of the Russian Jews were farmers and the idea of living like pioneers in a wild frontier did not attract many of them.