Author Topic: Were the Jews Responsible for the Russian Revolution/Bolsehvik Coup?  (Read 10957 times)

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Offline edubs31

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Re: Were the Jews Responsible for the Russian Revolution/Bolsehvik Coup?
« Reply #45 on: December 23, 2016, 09:16:36 PM »
Why didn't all black Americans flee the south after the Civil War (or at least after Reconstruction ended)? Why don't all homeless people in the US live in Miami or San Diego?

Familiar surroundings - even when relatively undesirable - are a powerful cultural factor. And migrating elsewhere is particularly difficult when you're aware that your new destination isn't exactly welcoming you with open arms.

As the saying goes...The devil you know...
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right...

Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Were the Jews Responsible for the Russian Revolution/Bolsehvik Coup?
« Reply #46 on: January 03, 2017, 09:49:13 PM »
In reply 7 has Alexandra not protesting about the Jews and land. While she earlier on defended the autocracy according to Sandro. It could because Alexandra felt Nicholas knew more on this subject then she did. One must point out Alexandra did not show much interest in politics pre WWI except when it involved Rasputin. Also Alexandra had little or nothing to do with the day to day running of the Russian Empire. Nicholas was the one who had to do a small mountain of paperwork every day. Alexandra as far as I can tell did not handle any of this.

Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Were the Jews Responsible for the Russian Revolution/Bolsehvik Coup?
« Reply #47 on: January 05, 2017, 05:10:52 PM »
A lso I to reply 7 A major complaint the rest of the Romanovs had towards Nicholas in the years leading up to WW I was him selling crown lands to the peasants. Even his mother the DE Maria Fed was upset to put it mildly over this. The Minister of Agriculture Krivoshein who did most of the work carrying out the Stolypin  land reforms was one of the better Russian ministers of the late Tsarist period and did much good work. he even I believe spent time explaining the land reforms to Alexandra who liked him. I think one bio of Nicholas calls Nicholas and Alexandra "Imperial populists"

Offline NicolasG

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Re: Were the Jews Responsible for the Russian Revolution/Bolsehvik Coup?
« Reply #48 on: January 05, 2017, 05:27:55 PM »
A lso I to reply 7 A major complaint the rest of the Romanovs had towards Nicholas in the years leading up to WW I was him selling crown lands to the peasants. Even his mother the DE Maria Fed was upset to put it mildly over this. The Minister of Agriculture Krivoshein who did most of the work carrying out the Stolypin  land reforms was one of the better Russian ministers of the late Tsarist period and did much good work. he even I believe spent time explaining the land reforms to Alexandra who liked him. I think one bio of Nicholas calls Nicholas and Alexandra "Imperial populists"

Krivoshein was one of the hawks that pushed Russia towards war with Germany. Sean McMeekin calls him "a temperamental Germanophobe", "France's favourite Russian" and "the leader of the war party" in his book "July 1914". Cristopher Clark in "The Sleepwalkers" agrees in a more restrained way:
"Belligerent views gained ground, not just because the Tsar (intermittently) and senior military and naval commanders supported them, but also because they were also espoused by an influential coterie of civilian ministers, of whom the most important was the minister of agriculture, Alexander Krivoshein".

Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Were the Jews Responsible for the Russian Revolution/Bolsehvik Coup?
« Reply #49 on: January 12, 2017, 04:38:49 PM »
I have read that Krivoshein was a major player in the 1914-15 Russian Government right behind the Prime Minister. Note the rest of the cabinet supported going to war in 1914.

The book "Fall of the Romanovs" has parts of an article by Vasily Yakovlev the man who transported Nicholas, Alexandra and Maria on their last trip from Tobolsk to Ekaterinburg  After he made a comment on religion he has Nicholas saying " I hold the same point of view! I also recognize complete freedom of conscience!"

Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Were the Jews Responsible for the Russian Revolution/Bolsehvik Coup?
« Reply #50 on: January 12, 2017, 08:59:14 PM »
Two men who were born Jewish who with out them the Bolshevik seizure of power and winning the Russian Civil war would not have been possible.

Alexander Helphand Parvus without him Lenin would probably not been able to get back to Russia.

Leon Trotsky he was the Red Commissar for war. The man who created the Red army. He did so by recruiting former Tsarist army officers who provided the leadership ect for the Red army to win the Russian Civil War. Just about all other members of the Bolshevik government were opposed to this. Sadly for Russia and the world Trotsky prevailed.

If anyone wonders why didn't the French jail Trotsky while he was in France in WW I? Answer the French Minister of the Interior Louis Malvy was a Radical and from his point of view there  were " no enemies on the left" malvy let other left wingers publish and distribute anti-war propaganda to the army and country which helped cause the 1917 mutinies in the French army. Note some of these people were being paid by the Germans to do so!?

Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Were the Jews Responsible for the Russian Revolution/Bolsehvik Coup?
« Reply #51 on: January 30, 2017, 06:23:10 PM »
I believe Jews made up have the senior leader in the Soviet Secret police in 1938 when Stalin purged a lot of them.

Offline Ellie

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Re: Were the Jews Responsible for the Russian Revolution/Bolsehvik Coup?
« Reply #52 on: January 30, 2017, 10:52:58 PM »
Who is "them" you are referring to? The senior Jewish police? Were they the ones you believe Stalin purged? So, if so, was this a turning point in the Soviet pro Jewish attitude?

Offline NicolasG

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Re: Were the Jews Responsible for the Russian Revolution/Bolsehvik Coup?
« Reply #53 on: January 31, 2017, 03:28:11 PM »
Paul R. Gregory gives these figures in his book Terror by Quota. The source is the book Kto rukovodil NKVD (Who headed the NKVD), by Petrov and Skorkin (1999)

Nationality of Top NKVD Leaders, 1934-1940

In 1934 the head of the NKVD was Yagoda (Jewish). Stalin had him shot, after replacing him with Yezhov (Russian). Then Stalin had Yezhov shot, after replacing him with Beria (Georgian), who was shot after Stalin's death. 

According to the 1937 census, Russians made up 58,1% of the population of the Soviet Union, Ukrainians 16.3 %, Germans 7,1%, Jews 1.7 % and Georgian 1.2 %.

With Yagoda in 1934, 38.5% of top NKVD leaders were Jewish, 31.3% Russian, 5.2% Ukrainian, 3.1% Georgian and 2.1% German.
With Yezhov in 1937, 31.9% of top NKVD leaders were Jewish, 33.6% Russian, 4.4% Ukrainain, 3.5% Georgian and 1.7% German.
Then Stalin carried out the Great Purge.
With Beria in 1940, 3.5% of top NKVD leaders were Jewish, 64.5% Russian, 16.9% Ukrainian, 6.6% Georgian. None were German.

So, there was a replacement of Jews, but also of other nationalities (Poles, Germans, Latvians) with Russians, Ukrainians and Georgians. By 1940, Russians and Georgians were overrepresented, Ukrainians were represented in their proportion of the population of the USSR (16.9% of NKVD leaders, 16.3% of the population). Jews were still overrepresented, but only by a factor of 2, not by a factor of 22, as they were in 1934.

Stalin wanted to get rid of "old bolshevists" (many of whom were Jewish) and anyone who might be tainted by association with them and replace them with new men, who owed loyalty only to Stalin. The final national structure of the top NKVD leaders was closer to the national structure of the Soviet Union, with the exclusion of nationalities which Stalin considered "suspicious": Germans, Poles, Latvians (Total of 13.6 top NKVD leaders in 1934, 0.0% in 1940).

Offline Ellie

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Re: Were the Jews Responsible for the Russian Revolution/Bolsehvik Coup?
« Reply #54 on: January 31, 2017, 09:28:40 PM »
Thanks Nicholas. That confirmed what I have thought - namely, gradually, Jewish Soviet representation in power declined. I just didn't have the sources. I don't think Stalin was an anti Semite in the traditional sense. He was probably equal opportunity regarding getting rid of undesirables and it was just a matter of time before the Jews, their Bolshevik activism notwithstanding, were disposed due to their association with the Old Bolsheviks. So much for the Jewish zealous belief that the Soviet Union was the new hope for the Jews.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 09:35:12 PM by Ellie »

Offline NicolasG

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Re: Were the Jews Responsible for the Russian Revolution/Bolsehvik Coup?
« Reply #55 on: February 01, 2017, 03:10:00 PM »
TSARIST (LACK OF) INVOLVEMENT IN POGROMS -II

"Both the causes and the effects of the 1881-4 pogroms have been the subject of considerable controversy. Contemporary conspiracy theories, according to which tsarist officials instigated the violence to deflect popular discontent from an incompetent regime, or revolutionaries organised the riots as a prelude to a broader uprising, have now been laid to rest. Even the most common contemporary explanation - that the pogroms were the bitter harvest of Jewish exploitation of the peasantry- has failed to withstand scrutiny, given that little seems to have changed in relations between Jews and peasants that could account for the sudden outbursts of violence, and in any event the pogroms were almost exclusively urban. In fact, historians have yet to provide a satisfaying explanation of the events beyond the undeniable but vague fact of widespread social and economic dislocation in the wake of the emancipation of the serfs and other Great Reforms".

Benjamin Nathans, The Jews in The Cambridge History of Russia. Volume II: Imperial Russia 1689-1917, Cambridge, 2006.

Offline Ellie

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Re: Were the Jews Responsible for the Russian Revolution/Bolsehvik Coup?
« Reply #56 on: February 01, 2017, 09:45:54 PM »
Thanks Nicholas for the sources of reference. I still fail to understand the often expressed fear of the Old Regime to give equal rights to the Jews. Even Witte expressed this fear - namely, that granting equal rights to the Jews would disturb the delicate social equilibrium.

I've just order Benjamin Nathan's book "Beyond the Pale: The Jewish Encounter with Late Imperial Russia". Based on the Amazon reviews I think it might offer me the explanation I've been seeking regarding the Jewish role in the Russian Revolution. Thanks for the pointer.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2017, 10:12:19 PM by Ellie »

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Re: Were the Jews Responsible for the Russian Revolution/Bolsehvik Coup?
« Reply #57 on: February 02, 2017, 01:13:28 PM »
I have posted this before, but it seems to be on point to quote this again. From  Spiridovitch  "Last Days of the Court at Tsarskoe Selo" Payot Paris, 1927. Vol 2 Ch. 19 (my personal translation from the original French)

That time the Prince had prepared for the audience with a great unease.  He noted down on a small piece of paper all of the points he wanted to mention to the Emperor. As number 8 on the list was the question of the Jews and number 9 was external politics, Bourdukov asked him:
   "Why are you going to ask these questions as the last ones?"
   "It is because they are the most serious ones" the Prince replied, "I am going to everything possible to tell the Emperor my thoughts, and my opinions. But at the same time I am afraid that the Emperor will be displeased that I have ventured into the forbidden circle.  You know well that every time I have tried to touch on the question of the Jews, the Emperor has become angry and for some time afterward would change the tone of his letters written to me. But, I have very little time left to live, and I must tell my beloved Tsar the truth one last time.  I greatly love our Minster of the Interior, Maklakov, but he is quite wrong on that matter.  He is very young and quite presumptuous, and I will speak out this time against him.  I will warn him.  His obstinance is harmful to the Emperor.  Many measures against the Jews must be eliminated as useless, fictitious, unreasonable and quite harmful to the Supreme Power."
   At six o'clock, the Prince, in a Chamberlain's uniform with the cross of St. Vladimir around his throat, took his place in his friend's automobile.  The Prince had been given the rank of Chamberlain when he was only 26 years old, and the cross of St. Vladimir was the only order he ever got, 3 years earlier, for his birthday.
   The automobile broke down twice on the way, which the Prince took to be the most evil omen, and said that he would never succeed before the Emperor.  At 7 o'clock he arrived at Peterhof at the home of their friend Admiral Nilov.  The handsome Court carriage already waited for the Prince and several minutes later, he left for the Alexander Palace.
   It was 8:30 when the Prince returned to Admiral Nilov's home.  He was emotional, excited and nervous as he had never been.  His face was red, his eyes feverish, his front covered in sweat.  Breathing heavily, the Prince abandoned his cloak to the lackey and fell heavily into an armchair.
   "You are tired Vladimir Petrovitch" Nilov said.
   "Not tired, but I do not feel well. I seem to have a fever…and I was quite agitated during my meeting with the Emperor…" the Prince responded.
   "It is time to die" he then said, after a small pause, "I am tired of living…Do you understand what I wish to say? Life itself weighs heavy on me.  It is time for me to go…for me to rest…."
   The dinner was gloomy.  Conversation languished.  After dinner, the Prince embraced the Admiral, kissed the hand of the Admiral's wife and invited Nilov to his home in Tsarskoie Selo, and then left with Bourdukov.
   In the car, alone with just his friend, the Prince sighed profoundly.
   "You don't know, my friend, how difficult it was to speak to the Emperor…Even thinking about that reception is painful for me...I spoke about the Jewish question. The Emperor listened to me without interrupting me and with great attention.  From time to time, in his kind face, I saw the shadow of displeasure.  I did everything I could to force him to respond to me.  But he kept silent.  Knowing well his intelligence, the fineness of his spirit, I was wounded that he did not want to face the evidence.  When I had finished with the Jewish question, the Emperor thought for several minutes, looked me fixed in the eyes and slowly smiled as if he wanted to soften his response, said to me: 'Excuse me, my old friend, but I am not in agreement with you.  I thank you very much for the advice which you have given me and which has been dictated by your devotion to me, by the love for our Mother Russia, but…you know that it is often that I do not wish to follow your advice.  I must take into consideration many other circumstances which you do not know about, which escape your attention…My responsibility towards Russia is so great that I do not have the right to consider a question of such great importance to the State on just one side alone, although I should find it personally desireable. You do not know all of these circumstances which I do, which I do not have the right to ignore, and which, quite to the contrary, I must take into consideration…"
   And the prince continued to convey to his friend his opinions on this question which was so serious and so complicated.
   On the subject of external politics, the Prince recounted:
"I had told the Emperor the idea that Russia must take its proper and definitive position in Europe, and in the Balkans without becoming enmeshed in the conflicts in Europe, although this must be dictated by humanitarian interests.  The external politics of Russia must be less sentimental, more independent and more self centered in the point of view of Russia itself and of personal interests.  I told the Emperor that Europe desires only the blood of Russia, that Europe wants only to weaken Russia, and I begged the Emperor to not become involved in the Balkan matters.  The Russian-Turkish war had cost a million Russian lives and all we had received in compensation was the ingratitude of one, the treason of others, and ill will.  I recalled the attitude of Europe at San Stefano, and in Berlin, and I begged the Emperor to put a good end to this lesson of history.
   "The Emperor listened to me as he always listened to everyone he received.  At moments, it seemed to me that he was ready to speak his agreement…But in vain…When I had finished, he have me his hand, embraced me as always, and said to me:
   'And all the same, I must think about all of this.  It is too serious, that I should give you a response immediately, I hope that we are going to meet again soon and as soon as I have the opportunity to free up several moments in my affairs for my old friend, I will do so. Good bye."
   The Prince was desolate.  The audience had ended without result.
   Being unwell during the springtime, and becoming then more weak, he was because of his ill health, stricken with pneumonia, and his health had become hopeless.  Two days before he died, the Prince refused to take medication. That evening he asked for pen and paper. 

Offline Ellie

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Re: Were the Jews Responsible for the Russian Revolution/Bolsehvik Coup?
« Reply #58 on: February 02, 2017, 10:26:30 PM »
Thanks for posting this. Spiridirovich's memoirs have finally been translated into English and I am expected my copy towards spring.
The Tsar was obviously overburdened, which explains his indecisiveness. The above passage also touches on the two issues which proved fatal to his reign - his attitude to the Jews and involvement in the Balkans. He also let himself be weighted down by too many conflicting opinions and his own want of clear cut position.
Who was this prince?

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Re: Were the Jews Responsible for the Russian Revolution/Bolsehvik Coup?
« Reply #59 on: February 02, 2017, 10:47:17 PM »
Spiridovitch:
Prince Vladimir Petrovitch Metchersksi, Chamberlain of His Majesty's Court, owner and editor in chief of the newspaper "Grazdanyin" ("The Citizen" weekly monarchist newspaper in Petersburg, pretending to be reactionary) Prince Metcherski loved Emperor Nicholas II as both the monarch and the son of Alexander III, with whom he had had a great friendship since his youth, starting when Alexander Alexandrovitch was still Tsarevitch.
   In the Prince's office one could see a portrait photograph of Tsar Alexander III with the following dedication: "In memory of past years and of our evenings. Your devoted, Alexander."
And on the photograph of Emperor Nicholas II, given to the Prince on January 14, 1910, was inscribed:
"To the indefatigable combatant for the maintenance of the historical foundations necessary for the continuing development of the Russian State."
   The Emperor respected the Prince as a friend of his father, great patriot and personal friend.  He often desired to know the Prince's opinions on political matters, but always guarded his independence.  The Emperor called him once "the Minister without a portfolio." However, there were two matters which the Emperor prohibited the Prince from touching: the Jewish question and external politics. There were what the Prince himself called "the forbidden circle."

Be careful of the modern Australian translation. The original French uses many 19th century idioms and terms which require contextual translation. Having read the recent translation, I found it lacking, sloppy  and unfamiliar with the contemporary idioms, vocabulary and contextual usages of the text. It is only a vague guide and misses the details