Author Topic: Unkown paintings of the little pair  (Read 1022 times)

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Offline Reli

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Unkown paintings of the little pair
« on: February 17, 2017, 09:48:40 AM »
In anticipation of the 100th anniversary of the death of the Grand princesses, who were cruelly murdered on July 17th of 1918, I now show you two original portraits (of the artist Lucie von Miram) they have always held an honorable place in the house of my grandparents in Amsterdam from about 1912 till 1960 (Because they were to be picked up there by princely couriers after completion of the pictures) - until 2014 they had a venerable place in my father's house.

Anastasia (left) and Maria Nicholaievna

Offline GDSophie

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Re: Unkown paintings of the little pair
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2017, 12:44:28 PM »
To me they don't look like them but amazing either way! Do you have any further evidence these are supposed to actually be the Grand Duchesses?
'Give my love to all who remember me' - Olga Nikolaevna

Offline Превед

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Re: Unkown paintings of the little pair
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2017, 04:02:41 PM »
two original portraits (of the artist Lucie von Miram)

Just because this kitsch artist was born in the Russian Empire (Riga) does not mean she only painted / drew the Imperial Family. There were other people in the Russian Empire besides NAOTMAA!
Березы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и березы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline GDSophie

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Re: Unkown paintings of the little pair
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2017, 04:10:33 PM »
two original portraits (of the artist Lucie von Miram)

Just because this kitsch artist was born in the Russian Empire (Riga) does not mean she only painted / drew the Imperial Family. There were other people in the Russian Empire besides NAOTMAA!

I think Reli meant they were painted by Lucie Von Miram, and apparently they are portraits of M and A which they or a family member own. I also don't know what you mean by your post? Care to explain without confusing myself and possibly other people? They weren't saying they only painted NAOTMAA; they said who owned them, how long and who they are.
'Give my love to all who remember me' - Olga Nikolaevna

Offline Превед

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Re: Unkown paintings of the little pair
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2017, 06:30:44 PM »
I think Reli meant they were painted by Lucie Von Miram, and apparently they are portraits of M and A which they or a family member own. I also don't know what you mean by your post? Care to explain without confusing myself and possibly other people? They weren't saying they only painted NAOTMAA; they said who owned them, how long and who they are.

Obviously the paintings or drawings are not of the grand duchesses (but somewhat older girls or young women from an earlier age) and the whole story about a princely imperial courrier supposed to come to pick them up sounds very unlikely.
Березы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и березы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline GDSophie

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Re: Unkown paintings of the little pair
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2017, 09:00:44 PM »
I think Reli meant they were painted by Lucie Von Miram, and apparently they are portraits of M and A which they or a family member own. I also don't know what you mean by your post? Care to explain without confusing myself and possibly other people? They weren't saying they only painted NAOTMAA; they said who owned them, how long and who they are.

Obviously the paintings or drawings are not of the grand duchesses (but somewhat older girls or young women from an earlier age) and the whole story about a princely imperial courrier supposed to come to pick them up sounds very unlikely.

So we have decided that they're not of M and A. Thank you for explaining.
'Give my love to all who remember me' - Olga Nikolaevna

Offline Reli

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Re: Unkown paintings of the little pair
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2017, 11:42:49 PM »
In fact, there is no evidence that it is M. and A., since children's faces change very much when they grow up.
But we are also in possession of a true copy of a letter of thanks from the secretary of her Imperial Highness, Alexandra Feodorovna, to the artist in which she thanks herself for the transmission of the portrait of his imperial majesty, the Grand-Duke Alexei.
This shows that the artist had actually portrayed the children of the imperial family.
The story of how the portraits came into our possession was told of our grandparents.
They, at the time both musicians at the Royal Concertgebouw in Amsterdam, also performed in European royal houses on their numerous tours. So they made also friends with the Czar's family.
On one of their tours (arround 1912) they were asked by the artist to take the portraits of the two Grand-Duchees to Amsterdam, where they were to be fetched by an imperial messenger. In view of the political development at the time, however, it has not been possible.
After the death of our grandfather in 1963, our grandmother had brought the portraits to Germany, where we still hold them in honor.

@ GDSophie:
With all respect. Who do you think you are to make such a decision?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2017, 12:12:42 AM by Reli »

Offline edubs31

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Re: Unkown paintings of the little pair
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2017, 12:53:14 AM »
Reli) While we appreciate your post why do you think it odd that GDSophie would inquirer as to whether these paintings were specifically of Maria & Anastasia?

If anything it was Preved who "made the decision" about the lack of resemblance, not GDSophia who simply followed her compliment with an opinion and question.

To me these look like pretty young girls perhaps drawn in the likeness of the Grand Duchess's. It's not like it would be all that difficult to paint virtual photographic replicas of the daughters given the 87-million pictures we have of them available!
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right...

Offline Reli

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Re: Unkown paintings of the little pair
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2017, 03:16:24 AM »

To me these look like pretty young girls perhaps drawn in the likeness of the Grand Duchess's. It's not like it would be all that difficult to paint virtual photographic replicas of the daughters given the 87-million pictures we have of them available!

And how many of these 87-million pictures were available on what route as the portraits were painted in the early 1910s?
This is a fact and is demonstrable by the originals. Any expert can verify this.
And we are not afraid to have the portraits examined.

Offline Sanochka

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Re: Unkown paintings of the little pair
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2017, 03:28:15 AM »
Pretty pictures, but the only resemblance I see is the softness in the eyes and face in the portrait purported to be that of Grand Duchess Marie.  Beyond that, the portraits just don't say Anastasia and Marie to me.  Perhaps it's the hair; the grand duchesses would not have had their hair up until they turned sixteen. 

The story itself about the origins of the portraits sounds highly romanticized, much like family stories in which gaps are filled in with likely scenarios in the retelling from generation to generation, and then accepted as fact.

Offline Reli

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Re: Unkown paintings of the little pair
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2017, 04:12:55 AM »
Pretty pictures, but the only resemblance I see is the softness in the eyes and face in the portrait purported to be that of Grand Duchess Marie.  Beyond that, the portraits just don't say Anastasia and Marie to me.  Perhaps it's the hair; the grand duchesses would not have had their hair up until they turned sixteen. 

The story itself about the origins of the portraits sounds highly romanticized, much like family stories in which gaps are filled in with likely scenarios in the retelling from generation to generation, and then accepted as fact.
Perhaps it's the hair; that makes the difference between a photo and a painting.

@Превед: At that time, there were neither cars nor airplanes that accelerated such transports and the people were grateful for every cut off .......... But obviously you were there ...... otherwise you would not know that very well .. ... ;-))

...... are not we ALL exactly for this reason in this forum, in order to feel closer to the Imperial Family in this way?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2017, 04:42:23 AM by Reli »

Offline Превед

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Re: Unkown paintings of the little pair
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2017, 06:45:27 AM »
@Превед: At that time, there were neither cars nor airplanes that accelerated such transports and the people were grateful for every cut off ..........

By 1912 there were excellent train connections. The train journey Amsterdam-Berlin-St. Petersburg would take a night and a day / hours (the Nord-Express between Paris and St. Petersburg needed 52 hours), not several days, like 50+ years earlier, when the most common route seems to have been with the steamer from Lübeck.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2017, 06:55:09 AM by Превед »
Березы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и березы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline Reli

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Re: Unkown paintings of the little pair
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2017, 07:23:38 AM »
By 1912 there were excellent train connections. The train journey Amsterdam-Berlin-St. Petersburg would take a night and a day / hours (the Nord-Express between Paris and St. Petersburg needed 52 hours), not several days, like 50+ years earlier, when the most common route seems to have been with the steamer from Lübeck.
52 hours does not fit in a night and a day. Not even in two.
But anyway, this may have been the reason why my grandparents were asked to take the two portraits from Switzerland to Amsterdam. This might have been half way already, at least from the time of travel.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2017, 07:31:12 AM by Reli »

Offline GDSophie

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Re: Unkown paintings of the little pair
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2017, 08:50:34 AM »
The second painting does show some likeness to Grand Duchess Maria, but the first one I can't exactly tell if it actually portrays Anastasia. Like edubs31 says, maybe they were painted in the likeness of M and A, but they just don't say Maria and Anastasia to me. Sanochka did say that they wouldn't have had their hair up until 1915 and 1917 respectfully and many paintings that claim to be of OTMAA usually don't look like them at all but are proven to portray them, just not accurately.
'Give my love to all who remember me' - Olga Nikolaevna

Offline Reli

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Re: Unkown paintings of the little pair
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2017, 09:16:48 AM »
With all respect and with all honor, but my two girls just say that they are not here gladly seen, - and that they want to go out again, they apologize, that they have bothered you and confused ......  :o  :'(  :-\