Author Topic: What if Russia brought back the monarchy?  (Read 989 times)

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Offline GDSophie

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What if Russia brought back the monarchy?
« on: September 27, 2017, 04:39:47 PM »
Constitutional or whatever, why not just make a new House? The surviving Romanovs may argue against it but any argument they make can be contradicted by using the House of Rurik as a counter-argument.

(I volunteer myself as Tsarina Sofia II of Russia; jokingly, of course, unless you're all okay with me volunteering. My Russian roots from my great-grandfather will help my case, yes? Lol)

They can actually do what they did back in 1613; find a Rurik relative and ask them to take the throne, except find an obscure Romanov relative and ask them. If they refuse, just make a new House from scratch.

It stops both sides of the Romanov family from arguing, and if one of them is picked then it's more arguments between them.

Make a poll addressed to the Russian people:
If Russia bought back the monarchy, which House would you like to see on the throne?

- House of Romanov.
- House of Rurik.
- Make a new House for all I care.

What's that in Russian? Lol.

Either way I would ask for all the Imperial jewellery from the Treasury back from every Royal House who has taken them all. Looking at you, Windsor.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2017, 04:45:59 PM by GDSophie »
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Offline TimM

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Re: What if Russia brought back the monarchy?
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2017, 10:51:12 AM »
Problem is, Russia currently has a de facto Tsar. 

I can't see the House of Putin giving up all the perks it has.

Offline GDSophie

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Re: What if Russia brought back the monarchy?
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2017, 06:04:19 PM »
Problem is, Russia currently has a de facto Tsar. 

I can't see the House of Putin giving up all the perks it has.

He'll die soon enough, unless he is some sort of immortal being or Russia's working on some sort of life prolonging experiment.
'Give my love to all who remember me' - Olga Nikolaevna

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: What if Russia brought back the monarchy?
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2017, 02:16:55 AM »
Putin is only 65. I think he will be around for a few years yet.

Ann

Offline GDSophie

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Re: What if Russia brought back the monarchy?
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2017, 10:55:18 PM »
Putin is only 65. I think he will be around for a few years yet.

Ann

Anything can happen during that time.
'Give my love to all who remember me' - Olga Nikolaevna

Offline Превед

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Re: What if Russia brought back the monarchy?
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2017, 11:09:37 AM »
Since none of Putin's two daughters seem to want to play any prominent political role, a short-lived House of Putin would most likely be succeeded by a House of Shamalov, as his son-in-law Kirill Nikolayevich Shamalov, a jurist born in 1982 as son of Putin's old Petersburg cronies, became Russia's youngest billionaire thanks to his father's and father-in-law's influence, based on control of the banks Bank Rossiya (his father's) and Gazprombank and the petrochemical giant Sibur. A pure product of oligarchic nepotism.

The man looks like an anti-Semitic caricature (google him!), but despite its sound the surname Shamalov is apparently geuinely and ethnically Russian, but based on various Turkic first names allegedly given as mocking nicknames to children of small stature! So he is nearly the same age and of similar outlandish appearance and oligarchic tendencies as Grand Duke Georgiy Mikhailovich.

Putin's other son-in-law, the mysterious but apparently handsome Dutch businessman Jorrit Joost Faassen (born in 1980), is much less prominent and of course a foreigner, though no doubt Peter the Great would have smiled in his grave if a Dutchman was to sit on his throne!

BTW only one of Putin's daughters, Mariya, is called Putina. The one married to Shamalov, Yekaterina, has taken her maternal grandmother's patronymic and is called Yekaterina Vladimirovna Tikhonova.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 11:24:53 AM by Превед »
Березы севера мне милы,
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: Ивы и березы, 1843 / 1856)

Offline Превед

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Re: What if Russia brought back the monarchy?
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2017, 01:45:56 PM »
Corrections:

.... a jurist born in 1982 as son of Putin's old Petersburg cronies....
.....son of one of.....

Quote
The one married to Shamalov, Yekaterina, has taken her maternal grandmother's patronymic and is called Yekaterina Vladimirovna Tikhonova.
.....patronymic as surname....
Березы севера мне милы,
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: Ивы и березы, 1843 / 1856)

Offline GDSophie

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Re: What if Russia brought back the monarchy?
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2017, 04:54:47 PM »
Since none of Putin's two daughters seem to want to play any prominent political role, a short-lived House of Putin would most likely be succeeded by a House of Shamalov, as his son-in-law Kirill Nikolayevich Shamalov, a jurist born in 1982 as son of Putin's old Petersburg cronies, became Russia's youngest billionaire thanks to his father's and father-in-law's influence, based on control of the banks Bank Rossiya (his father's) and Gazprombank and the petrochemical giant Sibur. A pure product of oligarchic nepotism.

The man looks like an anti-Semitic caricature (google him!), but despite its sound the surname Shamalov is apparently geuinely and ethnically Russian, but based on various Turkic first names allegedly given as mocking nicknames to children of small stature! So he is nearly the same age and of similar outlandish appearance and oligarchic tendencies as Grand Duke Georgiy Mikhailovich.

Putin's other son-in-law, the mysterious but apparently handsome Dutch businessman Jorrit Joost Faassen (born in 1980), is much less prominent and of course a foreigner, though no doubt Peter the Great would have smiled in his grave if a Dutchman was to sit on his throne!

BTW only one of Putin's daughters, Mariya, is called Putina. The one married to Shamalov, Yekaterina, has taken her maternal grandmother's patronymic and is called Yekaterina Vladimirovna Tikhonova.

Short lived indeed. Daughters aren't in the succession.
'Give my love to all who remember me' - Olga Nikolaevna

Offline Превед

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Re: What if Russia brought back the monarchy?
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2017, 07:11:23 PM »
Short lived indeed. Daughters aren't in the succession.

You mean in this scenario or according to the actual Pauline and Fundamental Laws of the Russian Empire? The latter were semi-Salic and allowed for female succession or succession through the female line (with the senior female descendant of the last reigning emperor expressly mentioned as keeping her right) if all agnatic dynasts were extinct.
Березы севера мне милы,
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: Ивы и березы, 1843 / 1856)

Offline GDSophie

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Re: What if Russia brought back the monarchy?
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2017, 03:12:54 AM »
Short lived indeed. Daughters aren't in the succession.

You mean in this scenario or according to the actual Pauline and Fundamental Laws of the Russian Empire? The latter were semi-Salic and allowed for female succession or succession through the female line (with the senior female descendant of the last reigning emperor expressly mentioned as keeping her right) if all agnatic dynasts were extinct.

The actual Pauline and Fundamental Laws. Who was the senior female descendant of Nicholas? His daughter Olga or his sister Xenia?
'Give my love to all who remember me' - Olga Nikolaevna

Offline Превед

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Re: What if Russia brought back the monarchy?
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2017, 04:47:53 AM »
His daughter Olga or his sister Xenia?

Olga Nikolayevna. See Chapter Two of the Fundamental Laws of the Russian Empire: http://www.imperialhouse.ru/en/dynastyhistory/dinzak1/442.html
Березы севера мне милы,
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: Ивы и березы, 1843 / 1856)

Offline GDSophie

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Re: What if Russia brought back the monarchy?
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2017, 07:05:29 PM »
His daughter Olga or his sister Xenia?

Olga Nikolayevna. See Chapter Two of the Fundamental Laws of the Russian Empire: http://www.imperialhouse.ru/en/dynastyhistory/dinzak1/442.html

30. When the last male issue of the Emperor's sons is extinct, succession remains in the same branch, but in the female issue of the last reigning Emperor, as being nearest to the Throne, and therein it follows the same order, with preference to a male over the female person; but the female person from whom this right directly proceeds never loses this right.

This confuses me because we know Michael was behind Alexei, but it says here that if the Emperor's sons died before they had any issue (in this case, just Alexei) then it goes to the nearest female branch of the last reigning Emperor. Then when the female branches are extinct, then it goes to the Emperor-Progenitor's eldest son or Michael. So, in actuality, Olga was after Alexei not Michael.

With the extinction of this branch the succession passes to the female issue of the branch of the eldest son of the Emperor-Progenitor, wherein the nearest relative of the last reigning Emperor in the branch of this son succeeds, the eldest in this descending line, or if unavailable, in a collateral line, and if this relative is lacking, then the male or female person who takes her place by substitution, with preference, as above, for a male over a female person.

See?

So the actual succession was;
Alexei
Olga
Tatiana
Maria
Anastasia
Michael
Xenia
All seven sons that I am not naming
Irina
Olga
'Give my love to all who remember me' - Olga Nikolaevna

Offline Превед

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Re: What if Russia brought back the monarchy?
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2017, 03:24:37 PM »
30. When the last male issue of the Emperor's sons is extinct, succession remains in the same branch, but in the female issue of the last reigning Emperor, as being nearest to the Throne, and therein it follows the same order, with preference to a male over the female person; but the female person from whom this right directly proceeds never loses this right.

This confuses me because we know Michael was behind Alexei, but it says here that if the Emperor's sons died before they had any issue (in this case, just Alexei) then it goes to the nearest female branch of the last reigning Emperor. Then when the female branches are extinct, then it goes to the Emperor-Progenitor's eldest son or Michael. So, in actuality, Olga was after Alexei not Michael.

With the extinction of this branch the succession passes to the female issue of the branch of the eldest son of the Emperor-Progenitor, wherein the nearest relative of the last reigning Emperor in the branch of this son succeeds, the eldest in this descending line, or if unavailable, in a collateral line, and if this relative is lacking, then the male or female person who takes her place by substitution, with preference, as above, for a male over a female person.

See?

This confused me too when I looked it up. But I have never read anything (in the 15 years I've taken an interest in the subject) that the succession to the Russian Throne during the last two centuries was anything but semi-Salic or agnatic-cognatic primogeniture - that is: allowing women and their lines to succeed only at the extinction of all the male descendants in the male line. I think it all hangs on how widely you define the phrase "последнее мужеское поколение сыновей Императора" = "the last male issue of the Emperor's sons". Evidently it is to be understood as "any male male-line descendant of any emperor" and not just the sons of the last emperor's sons.

It is perhaps due to a faulty translation. As you might know Russian has no definite article, so the Russian original says literally "last male issue of sons of Emperor" and not "of the Emperor". This also fits with article 27, stating the principle of semi-Salic agnatic-cognatic succession:
Both sexes have the right of succession to the Throne; but this right belongs by preference to the male sex according to the principle of primogeniture; with the extinction of the last male issue, succession to the Throne passes to the female issue by right of substitution.

Of course the English translation I cited does come from Maria Vladimirovna's home page and the male-preference primogeniture misunderstanding would fit her claims perfectly, but I very much doubt she undermines herself by messing with the correct reproduction or translation of the succession laws. Of course it can be controlled against other versions.
Березы севера мне милы,
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: Ивы и березы, 1843 / 1856)

Offline Превед

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Re: What if Russia brought back the monarchy?
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2017, 03:47:29 PM »
BTW I take the term Император-Родоначальник - Emperor-Progenitor as meaning the Emperor founding a new dynasty through the female line (and not the original legislator Paul I) and articles 30-32 as meaning that even if Alexey died before NII, any daughters or female-line grandsons he had would succeeded before Olga and the rest of their aunts and their descendants. But a daughter of Olga would succeed before a son of her sisters.
Березы севера мне милы,
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: Ивы и березы, 1843 / 1856)

Offline GDSophie

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Re: What if Russia brought back the monarchy?
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2017, 06:27:17 PM »
And the versions in the Russian archives.
'Give my love to all who remember me' - Olga Nikolaevna