Author Topic: Mary, Queen of Scots....was she really....  (Read 37598 times)

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Offline ivanushka

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Re: Mary, Queen of Scots....was she really....
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2007, 11:16:30 AM »
To me what explains her later behaviour the most was that she went from a country like France to one like Scotland. She had both in her blood, but she had been raised at the French court, and certainly understood France better. She never really grasped Scotland, and she was trying to rule, when her natural abilities were not what her cousin's were when it came to ruling. I really think she was a victim, beyond her image as a victim, because she really wasn't always the cause of her own downfall.

I completely agree.  Some historians have suggested that her chances of success as ruling Queen of Scotland were adversely affected by her growing up in France.  When she left Scotland she was a Scottish child but when she returned there she was a French woman who viewed Scotland much as the French did - with affection mixed with condescension.  Also, on the death of Mary Tudor, her father in law proclaimed Mary and her husband as King and Queen of England and Mary arrived back in Scotland eager to have her claim to the English throne acknowledged.  To her, I suspect, Scotland always seemed like a consolation prize compared to the English throne to which her French relatives had taught her was her right.

Offline todoi

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Re: Mary, Queen of Scots....was she really....
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2007, 10:25:18 PM »
why did Elizabeth have her arrested and imprisoned and why then was she  executed by Elizabeths orders?.....

Offline FaithWhiteRose

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Re: Mary, Queen of Scots....was she really....
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2007, 01:22:35 PM »
Mary was a Catholic and therefore an enemy of Protestant Elizabeth I. Mary also was a huge threat to Elizabeth's throne and that was why Elizabeth sent her own family member to teh scaffold... but, of course, it's the family members that usually have to lay their head on the block because they have a claim---and sometimes a better one than the reigning monarch---to the throne. That was why both Henry VII and Henry VIII got rid of most of their family members, most being Yorkist.

Offline bell_the_cat

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Re: Mary, Queen of Scots....was she really....
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2007, 04:17:16 PM »

I completely agree.  Some historians have suggested that her chances of success as ruling Queen of Scotland were adversely affected by her growing up in France.  When she left Scotland she was a Scottish child but when she returned there she was a French woman who viewed Scotland much as the French did - with affection mixed with condescension.  Also, on the death of Mary Tudor, her father in law proclaimed Mary and her husband as King and Queen of England and Mary arrived back in Scotland eager to have her claim to the English throne acknowledged.  To her, I suspect, Scotland always seemed like a consolation prize compared to the English throne to which her French relatives had taught her was her right.

I'm probably in a minority of one on this, but I honestly don't see that her upbringing in France was necessarily a problem:

1) France was a difficult country to rule with the same religious problems, and possibly worse economic problems than Scotland.

2) Scotland was such a backward country as is portrayed in the Vanessa Redgrave movie. The Scottish nobility were well educated and many ahad spent time at the French court

3) Mary was always known by her title Queen of Scots at the French court (until she became Dauphine). She did not despise this title.

4) During the years of her personal rule Mary did a good job as Queen of Scots ( before she married Darnley). She did nothing to actively pursue her claim to the English throne. Nor did she moan on about how much better things were in France.

5) Mary was a catholic, it is true, but her policy was consistently  conciliatory. She did not persecute protestants. In this respects her rule can be compared to that of Catherine de Medici in France. I think Catherine's job in France was far more challenging, actually.

So where did Mary go so spectacularly wrong? It wasn't that she was really better fitted for ruling France. The basic problem was that she wasby nature a poor and, it must be said, a reckless decision maker. I think this was a basic character trait, which admittedly could have been nurtured by her cosseted upbringing. This aspect of her character would have brought her trouble in France or Scotland, or for that matter in any office job!
Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after tomorrow. (Mark Twain)

Offline Mari

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Re: Mary, Queen of Scots....was she really....
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2007, 05:34:01 AM »
Does anyone know what jewelry Mary Queen of Scots had while in France? I mean of course French royal jewels. I came across a paragraph that said
Marie Antoinette had worn jewels that had belonged to Mary Queen of Scots.  I would like to see a picture of these.

Offline REMI

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Re: Mary, Queen of Scots....was she really....
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2009, 03:33:17 AM »

Offline Mari

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Re: Mary, Queen of Scots....was she really....
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2009, 05:11:41 AM »
Wow, I wish I could go.....

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A//www.musee-renaissance.fr/homes/home_id20729_u1l2.htm&hl=en&langpair=fr|en&tbb=1&ie=ISO-8859-1

Although her Beauty was referred to by Contemporaries I didn't really understand it until I saw her Death Mask!

Offline ivanushka

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Re: Mary, Queen of Scots....was she really....
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2009, 09:06:23 AM »
Mari - I know what you mean about her death mask.  When I saw it I could see what the fuss was all about in a way I've never quite been able to do when looking at her portraits.

Offline Kimberly

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Re: Mary, Queen of Scots....was she really....
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2009, 10:32:00 AM »
There are quite a few death masks about (I'm guessing some of them are copies!). There is supposedly an authentic one above the door to her bedchamber in Falkland Palace. I saw that one last October.
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Offline REMI

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Re: Mary, Queen of Scots....was she really....
« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2009, 11:45:27 AM »
Wow, I wish I could go.....

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A//www.musee-renaissance.fr/homes/home_id20729_u1l2.htm&hl=en&langpair=fr|en&tbb=1&ie=ISO-8859-1

Although her Beauty was referred to by Contemporaries I didn't really understand it until I saw her Death Mask!

Thank you, Mari, for the poster in english!

REMI

Offline Mari

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« Last Edit: January 21, 2009, 01:33:40 AM by Mari »

Offline boleynfan

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Re: Mary, Queen of Scots....was she really....
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2009, 01:25:51 PM »
Fun article on Mary Queen of Scots here...

http://travel.latimes.com/articles/la-tr-mqs1-2009mar01

Offline mcdnab

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Re: Mary, Queen of Scots....was she really....
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2009, 05:53:41 AM »
The key difference though was she was not brought up to be a Queen Regnant but to be a French Queen Consort. Had she remained in Scotland arguably she would have been more aware of the peculiar and particular problems of the Scots Crown. It is generally agreed that she was the spoilt and petted darling of the French court from her arrival not her fault but a fact.

Whilst Henri II lived France's religious problems were kept more under control, she and her young husband after his accession were largely dominated by her Guise relations who were on the arch catholic side and responsible for really pushing the French into the first religious wars of the 1560's.

She wasn't such an innocent child when she signed the secret codicils to her marriage treaty when asked to by Henri II which in effect turned Scotland into a french vassal state and piggy bank.

Her essential problem was as a Queen from birth she was completely and utterly secure in her position - her pride would never let her lose face or caste that was why she was so determined to marry again as soon as possible and was very very keen that her new husband was at least as high in rank as the dead Francois II - it was purely a coup de foudre and his own Tudor blood that lead her to marry Darnley.

You are right to say that her main problem was her flair for the dramatic which lead her to take reckless decisions and her willingness to trust people she shouldn't have done.






I completely agree.  Some historians have suggested that her chances of success as ruling Queen of Scotland were adversely affected by her growing up in France.  When she left Scotland she was a Scottish child but when she returned there she was a French woman who viewed Scotland much as the French did - with affection mixed with condescension.  Also, on the death of Mary Tudor, her father in law proclaimed Mary and her husband as King and Queen of England and Mary arrived back in Scotland eager to have her claim to the English throne acknowledged.  To her, I suspect, Scotland always seemed like a consolation prize compared to the English throne to which her French relatives had taught her was her right.

I'm probably in a minority of one on this, but I honestly don't see that her upbringing in France was necessarily a problem:

1) France was a difficult country to rule with the same religious problems, and possibly worse economic problems than Scotland.

2) Scotland was such a backward country as is portrayed in the Vanessa Redgrave movie. The Scottish nobility were well educated and many ahad spent time at the French court

3) Mary was always known by her title Queen of Scots at the French court (until she became Dauphine). She did not despise this title.

4) During the years of her personal rule Mary did a good job as Queen of Scots ( before she married Darnley). She did nothing to actively pursue her claim to the English throne. Nor did she moan on about how much better things were in France.

5) Mary was a catholic, it is true, but her policy was consistently  conciliatory. She did not persecute protestants. In this respects her rule can be compared to that of Catherine de Medici in France. I think Catherine's job in France was far more challenging, actually.

So where did Mary go so spectacularly wrong? It wasn't that she was really better fitted for ruling France. The basic problem was that she wasby nature a poor and, it must be said, a reckless decision maker. I think this was a basic character trait, which admittedly could have been nurtured by her cosseted upbringing. This aspect of her character would have brought her trouble in France or Scotland, or for that matter in any office job!

Offline boleynfan

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Re: Mary, Queen of Scots....was she really....
« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2009, 05:21:52 PM »
The key difference though was she was not brought up to be a Queen Regnant but to be a French Queen Consort. Had she remained in Scotland arguably she would have been more aware of the peculiar and particular problems of the Scots Crown. It is generally agreed that she was the spoilt and petted darling of the French court from her arrival not her fault but a fact.

Whilst Henri II lived France's religious problems were kept more under control, she and her young husband after his accession were largely dominated by her Guise relations who were on the arch catholic side and responsible for really pushing the French into the first religious wars of the 1560's.

She wasn't such an innocent child when she signed the secret codicils to her marriage treaty when asked to by Henri II which in effect turned Scotland into a french vassal state and piggy bank.

Her essential problem was as a Queen from birth she was completely and utterly secure in her position - her pride would never let her lose face or caste that was why she was so determined to marry again as soon as possible and was very very keen that her new husband was at least as high in rank as the dead Francois II - it was purely a coup de foudre and his own Tudor blood that lead her to marry Darnley.

You are right to say that her main problem was her flair for the dramatic which lead her to take reckless decisions and her willingness to trust people she shouldn't have done.


You make an excellent point about her upbringing.  She might indeed have been a better Scottish Queen had she been raised there.

Offline *§Yue§*

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Re: Mary, Queen of Scots....was she really....
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2010, 06:58:10 AM »
Do you have some informations about this beautiful portrait of Mary Queen of Scots? (author, year, localisation?)