Author Topic: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary  (Read 121763 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Eutropius

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 31
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
« Reply #195 on: October 18, 2010, 12:54:29 PM »
I though it was really more with the marriage of Grand Duke Konstantin Pavlovich in 1796 to Princess Juliane (Anna Feodorovna) of Saxe-Coburg.  I remember reading that Catherine II thought highly of Duchess of Saxe-Coburg (Auguste).  Three of the daughters went to visit and Catherine liked them all.  The Duchess, like the Landgravine of Darmstadt (mother of Paul's first wife Natalia Alexeievna) and the Hereditary Princess of Baden (mother of Tsarina Elizaveta Alexeievna, seems to have been an intelligent and dynamic woman. 
All I can recall about the Duke (Franz) of Saxe-Coburg was that he was something of an invalid.  The Duke of Saxe-Coburg did have some powerful relatives.  His mother was a Princess of Brunswick-Wolfenbuettel, which made him a nephew by marriage of King Friedrich II of Prussia, a first cousin of King Friedrich Wilhelm II of Prussia, etc.
This following piece is only my opinion.  Catherine II was born a minor princess (Anhalt-Zerbst) herself.  I don't think that great birth was something she looked for when finding brides for her son or her grandsons.
After the separation/divorce of Konstantin and Anna Feodorovna, I read that the Russians disliked the Coburgs.  Prince Leopold was a fairly impoverished military officer.  He was lucky enough to be handsome, eligible, and in the right place at the right time.  Princess Charlotte also had the support of her grandmother Queen Charlotte.

Offline Eutropius

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 31
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
« Reply #196 on: October 18, 2010, 01:41:16 PM »
Going along with my argument of being in the right place at the right time, being a poor younger son played in Leopold's favor.  I read that Princess Charlotte broke off her engagement with the Prince of Orange, because she would be expected to move to the Netherlands.  She wanted to remain in England where she could support her mother.  Compared to the sleazy Prussian Prince Augustus that Princess Charlotte had been flirting with, Prince Leopold seemed sensible and respectable.  That's how she got the support of her family.

Again my opinion, but I don't think that the Kohary marriage/wealth benefited the other lines of the family very much.  They didn't marry until 1816.  Keep in mind that Prince Kohary (Princess Antonie's father) didn't die until 1826.  I doubt he would have bankrolled his daughter's new relatives.  When Queen Victoria and Prince Albert were courting, there was distrust/negative comments about the how "Catholic" the Coburgs had become.  They were also considered to be mercenary (Leopold and his 50,000 pounds per annum). Duchess Auguste, who came from a devoutly protestant background (her Great Uncle by marriage, Count Zinzendorf, was a major figure in the Moravian Church), felt a need to defend herself about the Kohary marriage saying that she couldn't stop two people in love.

Offline Kalafrana

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2912
    • View Profile
Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
« Reply #197 on: October 19, 2010, 03:22:48 AM »
Eutropius

Many thanks for all these interesting details.

Ann

Offline Eric_Lowe

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 16999
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
« Reply #198 on: October 25, 2010, 11:30:48 AM »
I read somewhere that the infamous "Coburg curse" came with the Kohary family ?

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

  • Guest
Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
« Reply #199 on: October 27, 2010, 03:17:20 AM »
I read somewhere that the infamous "Coburg curse" came with the Kohary family ?

If so, I am convinced it's because they are descended from the morganatic royal son-in-law and traitor Corfitz Ulfeldt (Antonia's 3x great grandfather), one of the few people to have had a monument erected in his dishonour! It bore the inscription: Corfitz WF [Ulfeldt] forræderen, Till Æwig Spott, Skam og Skiendsel. = Corfitz WF [Ulfeldt] the traitor. In eternal disgrace, shame and dishonour.
(From 1663 to 1841 it stood outside his former house on Copenhagen's Grey Friars Square, now it can be viewed in the National Museum, see here.)

Murdered Swedish Prime Minister Olof Palme's wife Baroness Lisbet Beck-Friis was also descended from Corfitz Ulfeldt......
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 03:25:45 AM by Фёдор Петрович »

Offline Kalafrana

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2912
    • View Profile
Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
« Reply #200 on: October 27, 2010, 03:24:30 AM »
What did the dreadful Corfitz actually do? And what is the curse?

Regards

Ann

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

  • Guest
Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
« Reply #201 on: October 27, 2010, 03:44:55 AM »
What did the dreadful Corfitz actually do?

One thing is that as Steward of the Realm and Governor of Copenhagen he embezzled government money, did his utmost (as a high noble and member of the Council of the Realm) to limit his brother-in-law Frederik III's constitutional powers when Frederik was elected king and was one of the Crown's biggest creditors (always a good reason to get rid of somebody!), but he later intrigued and plotted against the King and went over to the Swedes during the critical period when Denmark was life-threateningly maimed (loss of the Scanian Lands) and came close to being extinguished (the Carl Gustav Wars that ended with the Peace of Roskilde in 1658.)

(NB 1864 was not the first time Denmark was saved by a miracle! And NB II the failure of the government by the noble Council of the Realm and its elective monarchy in that crisis was what enabled Frederik III to stage a coup in 1660 and make himself hereditary, absolutist monarch. He was officially offered the crown on those conditions by Fridtjof Nansen's distant ancestor Hans Nansen, Mayor of Copenhagen, on behalf of the third estate, but modern historians suspect that Frederik III was not as taken by surprise by that offer as he appeared to be.....)

Corfitz Ulfeldt himself escaped and his effigy executed in absentia, but his loyal wife Leonora Christine, Countess of Slesvig, Christian's IV's morganatic daughter, was arrested in London and extradicted to Denmark by her cousin once removed King Charles II and imprisoned for co-conspiracy for life in very sad conditions in the Blue Tower of old Copenhagen Castle. There she wrote a masterpiece of early modern Danish literature, "Jammersminde", Memory of Misery, a very interesting account of her 21 years of imprisonment. (it was mostly due to her sister-in-law Queen Sophie Amalie of Brunswick-Lunebourg (she was the sister-in-law of the Electress Sophia) and her hatred of Leonora Christine that she was treated so harshly, her conditions were eased when the old queen died.)

Ulfeldt had loaned Queen Christina of Sweden money when she wanted to go to Rome and he and his children (who already were Counts of the Empire) became Catholics and moved to Austria, where they went into Imperial service.

Quote
And what is the curse?
In reality: Rubbish. Those who think the Saxe-Cobourgs are cursed have not read enough about other RFs, who all are tragic in some way or the other too.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 04:07:57 AM by Фёдор Петрович »

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

  • Guest
Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
« Reply #202 on: October 27, 2010, 04:24:17 AM »
BTW Mayor Hans Nansen's sister married Peder, Count Griffenfeldt (né Schumacher), the guy who wrote Frederik III's absolutist constitution, the Lex Regia that proved central in the Schleswig-Holstein Question. He later also fell into disgrace (the official charge was corruption) and lived out his days as a prisoner on a Norwegian Alcatraz, Munkholmen Fortress outside Trondheim. His daughter Charlotte Amalie, though, became the ancestress of the Counts Krag-Vind-Juel-Frijs. Count Mogens K-V-J-F, married to a Countess Danneskiold-Samsøe (royal morganauts) played a central role in the Change of System in 1901, when Christian IX had to give up his absolutism and appoint a cabinet with a parliamentary majority.

One can construct an awful lot of conspiracy theories and curses.... What will happen when descendants of Ulfeldt, Griffenfeldt and Struensee (his blood runs in the Augustenbourgs, who again became traitors in 1848!), the three disgraced traitors of Danish history, intermarry? What will that "traitors' spawn" do to Denmark..... But don't worry: Legend says that Holger Danske, the Ogier le Danois of chansons de geste, will wake up from his slumber in the vaults of Kronborg Castle aka Elsinor and save Old Denmark, like it was saved in 1658 and 1864!
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 04:27:49 AM by Фёдор Петрович »

Offline Kalafrana

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2912
    • View Profile
Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
« Reply #203 on: October 27, 2010, 05:01:21 AM »
Фёдор Петрович

Many thanks. It sounds a perfect plot for a historical novel!

As to the supposed curse, the Coburgs have prospered rather than the reverse.

Ann

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

  • Guest
Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
« Reply #204 on: October 27, 2010, 05:06:14 AM »
Do also take a look at beautiful Holckenhavn Castle on Funen, originally Ulfeldtsholm, as it was the Ulfeldts' residence since the 15th century. Curiously they sold it to Ellen Munk née Marsvin, the mother of Kirsten Munk, Countess of Slesvig, Christian IV's morganatic wife. Through her daughter Leonora Christine it briefly passed back to the Ulfeldts, untill it was confiscated after their fall and given to a Baron Holck (Commander of Kronborg) who had risen to prominence during the aforementioned Wars with Sweden. (His father-in-law the Vice-Chancellor Holger Vind was engaged to Leonora Christine's sister Sophie Elisabeth, Dowager Countess Pentz, but broke off the engagement when the "Party of the Sons-in-Law" fell out of favour upon Ulfeldt's fall from grace. Such morganatic royal ancestry would have been very interesting, considering that:) The first Baron Holck of Holckenhavn's 3x great grandson was Vilhelm Frimann Marcher the ill-fated father of Princess Thyra's illegitimate child.

Danmark er såmænd et lille land - Denmark is indeed a small country....
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 05:22:13 AM by Фёдор Петрович »

Offline Hector

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 79
    • View Profile
Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
« Reply #205 on: January 06, 2012, 05:19:46 PM »
Just curious where the Kohary branch of Saxe-Coburgs live in Vienna before they built the Palais Coburn?

Offline Eric_Lowe

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 16999
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
« Reply #206 on: January 07, 2012, 01:37:07 PM »
Most likely they rented townhouses in Vienna before that as most royals do.

Offline Hector

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 79
    • View Profile
Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
« Reply #207 on: January 07, 2012, 03:08:28 PM »
Wouldn't the Kohary in-laws have had a residence?

Most likely they rented townhouses in Vienna before that as most royals do.

Offline Bourgogne

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 131
    • View Profile
Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
« Reply #208 on: August 18, 2012, 04:07:42 PM »



Are you sure this is Gusty ?

Looks more like a young Philip of Sx C G

Yes, you're right, this is not Gusty but Philip... Here are August of SG and Clementine of Orleans, with their children in 1863 :

From left to right Clotilde, Amélie, Philip, Ferdinand and Gusty...





Offline Eric_Lowe

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 16999
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
« Reply #209 on: August 18, 2012, 05:35:19 PM »
I wonder if they have a reunion photo of their families too.