Author Topic: discussion about orthodox religion #1  (Read 71622 times)

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bluetoria

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Re: discussion about orthodox religion
« Reply #240 on: February 02, 2005, 10:30:57 AM »
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Another example is intolerance, mainly religious. There's no worse thing, IMO, than for a group of people to decide there's going to be one single god from now on, when there used to be thousands. And declare everything else idolatary and sin.

Besides, it has to be said that there is only a very small number of people who have "come to Jesus" (as they say) on their own. The rest were forced to accept it. Russia being an example of this. And that is NOT okay.

For example, I am not used to considering god's and Jesus' feelings and opinions, and the opinions of todos los santos before I do something  :D

So, for instance, if I want to sleep with my neighbours wife... and the wife wants to sleep with me...  :o I'm off topic!


Alex, in my experience, while there are many intolerant religious groups, religion is one of the least tolerated aspects around! It is permissible (at least here in the UK) to criticize & mock anything Christian whereas one has to be so politcally correct in other fields. While I (& all my 'religious' friends) would not mock the atheism of someone else, we are frequently mocked for our beliefs.

In the reference to people being forced into religion, are you refering to the past?

And yeah, if you want to sleep with your neighbour's wife etc. do as you please...but whether or not you consider there to be a God...what about your neighbour - how will he feel/how would you if it were your wife? You'll make a very unhappy life for yourself & others if you only go through it thinking of what you want (IMO)  ;)

Offline Reed

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Re: discussion about orthodox religion
« Reply #241 on: February 02, 2005, 11:09:39 AM »
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And yeah, if you want to sleep with your neighbour's wife etc. do as you please...but whether or not you consider there to be a God...what about your neighbour - how will he feel/how would you if it were your wife? You'll make a very unhappy life for yourself & others if you only go through it thinking of what you want (IMO)  ;)



Excellent point bluetoria!!

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: discussion about orthodox religion
« Reply #242 on: February 02, 2005, 11:47:43 AM »
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And yeah, if you want to sleep with your neighbour's wife etc. do as you please...but whether or not you consider there to be a God...what about your neighbour - how will he feel/how would you if it were your wife? You'll make a very unhappy life for yourself & others if you only go through it thinking of what you want (IMO)  ;)


IMO, this type of thing has nothing to do with God. It is between human beings and each of us should be able to set rules for ourselves as to what sort of person we want to be and how we live our lives. We all know what is right and what is wrong, and I don't think our actions are as much influenced by religion as many would like to think.
I think that God or no, what dictates our actions is something inside us, and we will, most often than not, do what we are compelled to do. Good examples of this can be found everywhere, with people who are religious (and I don't doubt that they are) doing all kind of things that they are compelled to do but not "supposed" to. Religion can't stop it. Can a religious person stop themselves from being a pedophile? I don't think so. Even if they don't act upon it, they will still have the feelings. And chances are they will eventually act on it, given the opportunity, because it is a strong compulsion. They will later feel very guilty and disgusted with themselves, but they will do it. And at the same time, I believe this person can be very religious. I think there are forces here that are operating way beyond accepting God/religion and living your life accordingly. Human nature is very complicated and if anyone thinks that things like this can solved by accepting religion, they are oversimplifying human nature.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by helenazar »

bluetoria

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Re: discussion about orthodox religion
« Reply #243 on: February 02, 2005, 11:53:59 AM »
Yes, I entirely agree with you, Helen. I think it's quitewrong to equate religion with morality or 'goodness' (for want of a better expression. Faith is about BELIEF, a relationship with God & following a particular way of life. The belief SHOULD lead us to live better lives (which is not to say people without beliefs do not lead good lives) but we fail to live up to our best instincts sometimes because we are human.
In my experience (& I do not say this is the same for everyone) my faith helps me to 'live a better life' than I would without it. I sense that the presence of God strengthens me to follow my better 'impulses' & to consider others as Jesus visible before me. (I don't always succeed of course!) It is the belief - surtout - the relationship with God which counts in 'religion.'

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: discussion about orthodox religion
« Reply #244 on: February 02, 2005, 11:58:14 AM »
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In my experience (& I do not say this is the same for everyone) my faith helps me to 'live a better life' than I would without it. I sense that the presence of God strengthens me to follow my better 'impulses' & to consider others as Jesus visible before me. (I don't always succeed of course!) It is the belief - surtout - the relationship with God which counts in 'religion.'
 


Yes, and this is what it should be all about. We all need something like this, but we each get our "inspiration" from different sources. But when religion and God are presented as a threat, "do this way or else this and that will happen to you", that kind of defeats the whole purpose. But unfortunately this is what often happens, in many religions, in fact not just Christianity... In a way that could be part of human nature too, maybe people need to be "blackmailed" into doing something that goes against their nature. This is all very complicated...

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: discussion about orthodox religion
« Reply #245 on: February 02, 2005, 12:02:18 PM »
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.....but there does seem to be those "limits" or "evils" or "sins" that are inherent in all cultures, peoples.  One might be murder.

Yes, this is true, Reed, but what about human sacrifice? Wouldn't that be considered murder and yet in some cultures it wasn't, it was a good thing. Even in the old testament, Abraham was willing to do it when "God" asked him to. It was attempted murder to be exact, to our modern eyes  ;). And yet, it was ultimately presented as a good thing because it was for the loyalty of God. Again, I still think that even things that should be "black and white" universally, often aren't....

bluetoria

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Re: discussion about orthodox religion
« Reply #246 on: February 02, 2005, 12:05:56 PM »
I think that we think alike...it's just we don't quite have the same view of God! I would say it is God working in all of us, whether we recognize Him or not. You would say (forgive me if I'm wrong) it is rising to our better natures or finding inspiration in something - other than ourselves?
Either way it seems if it helps make the world a little better it doesn't matter.
What DOES matter enormously (TO ME!) is the relationship with God (as I said before) - I hate the word 'relationship' but I cannot think of a better one.  

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: discussion about orthodox religion
« Reply #247 on: February 02, 2005, 12:19:29 PM »
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...it's just we don't quite have the same view of God! I would say it is God working in all of us, whether we recognize Him or not.  


And it's ok, because perhaps we each define God as something different.

bluetoria

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Re: discussion about orthodox religion
« Reply #248 on: February 02, 2005, 01:10:12 PM »
Yes :)

But I can't resist adding this quotation (since it seems appropriate to this site) from Queen Victoria to Victoria of Hesse:

"Science can exmplain MANY THINGS but there si a spiritual as well as a material world & the former cannot be explained. We must have FAITH & TRUST & believe in all all ruling, all wise & beneficient Providence wh. orders all things. To try and find out the REASON for everything...leads to nothing but dissatisfaction, unsettling your mind & in the end making you miserable.
No one felt this more than [Pss. Alice] who felt all the blessedness & comfort of faith & trust wh. no philosophy can give after having fora time tested the other. Dear [P. Albert] used to say, "Reason goes only so far, andwhere reason stops, belief must begin."

It reminds me of St. Augustine:
"Seek notto understandthat you believe, seek rather to believe that you may understand."

I'm would not presume to say everyone should think or agree with this...I just like it :D

bluetoria

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Re: discussion about orthodox religion
« Reply #249 on: February 02, 2005, 01:16:41 PM »
Sorry for so many typing errors in that! I was balancing the book on my left hand & typing with my right which I'm not so good at (being left-handed!)

Offline Georgiy

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Re: discussion about orthodox religion
« Reply #250 on: February 02, 2005, 02:33:23 PM »
Those were very good quotes Bluetoria!

I am sure we all have our own ideas and definitions about God, but in the end, God is undefinable as He is the creator of everything that there is, this world and all that is herein, and the entire Universe. We can hardly even begin to contemplate or understand God, though we can see glimpses. God is limitless, but we have our limits. We talk of the womb of the Virgin as being more spacious than the Heavens as it contained God.

The greastest gift we have is our free will - God doesn't force us to come to Him or to be as robots.


Offline Reed

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Re: discussion about orthodox religion
« Reply #251 on: February 02, 2005, 03:19:20 PM »
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Yes, this is true, Reed, but what about human sacrifice? Wouldn't that be considered murder and yet in some cultures it wasn't, it was a good thing. Even in the old testament, Abraham was willing to do it when "God" asked him to. It was attempted murder to be exact, to our modern eyes  ;). And yet, it was ultimately presented as a good thing because it was for the loyalty of God. Again, I still think that even things that should be "black and white" universally, often aren't....


Yes, Helen you are correct.  Cultures such as the Aztecs, Incas, etc.  did pratice human sacrific and it was accepted within their "religious system."  The Old Testament is also a good example.  One wonders if God would have allowed Abraham to actually kill Isaac??  It does center more on obedience than the actual act.  Later God condemned those cultures that did sacrifice humans...the Philistines for one.  I do think that deep within all humans there is a good part (spiritual)trying to overcome the bad part (evil).  In my belief system before the entrance of evil into the world all men/women were good and we have a inherent need to go back to that place.  Through the years this has been wrapped in "religion."  Anytime we try to explain God we fail sometimes because we have preconceived ideas taught by "religious systems."  But somewhere down deep is the need for a higher purpose, meaning......God.  I hope that makes some sense.

Offline Georgiy

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Re: discussion about orthodox religion
« Reply #252 on: February 03, 2005, 08:56:36 PM »
For those interested in what Fathers of the Church both ancient and recent have said about sin, here are a couple of good links:

www.orthodox.net/gleanings/sins.html
www.orthodox.net/gleanings/sin.html

orthodox.net has a lot of interesting information for those wanting to find out a bit more about the Faith of the Romanovs.

bluetoria

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Re: discussion about orthodox religion
« Reply #253 on: February 04, 2005, 04:50:26 AM »
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That's because Christianity is getting what it deserves. It has been destroying people and valuables around the world for centuries. People who do not tolerate Christianity as such have every right to do so, IMO.

A religion that goes against human nature can't be healthy. It is 'stupidity meets blackmail'  :P

In any case, freedom of religion is excellent  :D  :D  :D


Alex you are completely contradicting yourself. First you say Christianity shouldn't be tolerated, then you say freedom of religion is excellent.
What do you mean _ a religion that goes against human nature?

Do you HONESTLY have ANY serious views about this...or are you just provoking a discussion for the sake of it?

Offline JM

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Re: discussion about orthodox religion
« Reply #254 on: February 04, 2005, 07:38:03 AM »
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I'll explain again. I said that in my opinion Christianity is a bad thing.

Well, that sounds like an informed and rational opinion!
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Then I said that freedom of religion is excellent, because when there was no such thing (thanks to Christianity) it was a very sad time. And now that it isn't mandatory, we can all rejoice. Is that SO HARD to understand?  ::)

Yes, of course, because Christians were after all the only intolerant people in history . . .  ::) Oh, and now that Christianity isn't "mandatory" there is freedom of religion and everyone's happy! Come on now, people are not much more (if at all) happier now than they were when Christianity was "mandatory." And as for freedom of religion, well it tries exists in former Christian societies. However, I could name quite a few other societies where freedom of religion is hardly tolerated, but that's not the point of this discussion. (Free Tibet!)
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Well, if one has to be "blackmailed" into doing something, then, surely, it's a relgion that is goes against nature.

I'll be cynical about this one. "Blackmail" is against human nature? Please, where did it stem from?
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Isn't anti-Christianity a serious view?

IMO, anti-Christian/Muslim/Pagan/[whatever you want] views all speak of an archaic mindset that allows selective intolerance.
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CHILL. No one is trying to take Jesus away from you  :P

Point?

Really now, this is quite sad. I thought that this discussion could amble along nicely, but I guess that I was wrong. It's unfortunate that one person can chime in with his/her irrational opinions which do nothing but lower the level of discussion to vitrolic rhetoric. It's sad too.