Author Topic: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich  (Read 174187 times)

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Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« on: January 28, 2004, 08:35:19 AM »
Some people believe that Alexei survived and lived in America and even had children.  How much truth is in this school of thought?
« Last Edit: June 01, 2009, 11:23:50 AM by Alixz »
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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2004, 09:28:52 AM »
There is no truth whatsoever in any fantasy story that Alexei escaped. Period.

As I said earlier, as Inheritor to the Throne of Russia, the Bolsheviks would have made very certain that Alexei was dead. Also, given the known fact of his hemophilia, he could not have survived any injuries from the executioners for any length of time.  Lastly, an eyewitness, who was not part of the execution squad testified that he had seen Alexei's corpse and described it in great detail.

Alexei's supposed "survival and escape" is frankly even more a fairy-tale fantasy than that of Anastasia. Even those who still believe in Anna Anderson mostly concede that Alexei did not survive.

insight

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2004, 10:25:36 PM »
Do you know the name of the eyewitness and if so the circumstances behind the observation?

Offline Alice

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2004, 05:10:30 AM »
I'd like to know that too. (Who the eyewitness was)

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2004, 08:58:21 AM »
This was a member of the Cheka, G.I. Sukhorukov, who was assigned to go help dispose of the corpses of the Royal Family the next morning. On April 3, 1928 his memoir:... "It was necessary to begin digging up the corpses (after the attempt to burn them the previous night)...the first thing we came across was the leg of the last Nicholas.  He was removed successfully, and then all the others. To be precise, it can be said that everybody was naked, except for the heir, who had on a sailor shirt but no trousers."

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2004, 11:36:50 PM »
The fact that the other witness was a member of the secret police and involved with the assassination (though maybe not directly) does not in my opinion lend anymore credibility than the testimony of the assassins themselves.

I personally don't think anyone should jump to conclusions regarding the missing children without proper forensic evidence. There needs to be dna recovered which positively identifies any remains. The same level of evidence (if not more) is required from those who claim that the two survived (or claim descent). When someone says they know the answer to this issue then they should be able to provide conclusive evidence and not just conclusive theories.      

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2004, 02:14:21 AM »
I agree.  Because the bodies of Alexei and one of the girls were never found.  
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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2004, 05:19:00 AM »
Why would they've stripped all the bodies completely, except for Alexei? And if Alexei was dug up with the other bodies, why wasn't his body re-buried with the others? There must've been a reason . . . not saying that he survived, because I honestly don't think he did.  


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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2004, 09:36:03 AM »
Alice,
The reason the bodies had been stripped was because all of the girls and Alexandra had gold and diamonds hidden in their clothes.  During imprisonment in the Alexander Palace they took diamonds out of Alexandra's jewelery and sewed them into little packets between two thin chemises which they were always wearing secretly.  For those who don't know, at that time, all the Grand Duchesses wore corsets (as did all "ladies of breeding" in Victorian times) and the chemise was a thin undershirt worn under the corset.  During the murders several of the Grand Duchesses were not killed by the bullets, because the diamonds acted like a bullet proof vest, as the executioners began to stab them, the diamonds started spilling out. Therefore, they stripped all of the bodies to shred the clothes looking for valuables. Each corpse was carefully searched while still in the basement.  This is, at least to me, more compelling evidence that all of them were quite dead, because the bodies were clearly handled quite a lot that night and someone would surely have noticed someone still alive.  Alexei was wearing just his favorite sailor's shirt from the Standardt crew and they could see he did not have any valuables on him so they just left the shirt.  All of the bodies were then taken to the forest and they tried to burn them...again more evidence that none of them were still alive. This much is without doubt...it is after this point that things become murky.

As for the demanding of concrete physical evidence, it is not always necessary. Compare that notion to this obvious possibility:
Clearly it is possible that perhaps one hundred people who were supposed to be in the WTC September 11 decided to use the tragedy as an excuse to disappear and start new lives and identities from scratch.....The New York Times reports that over 350 people are missing still from the Sept. 11 tragedy with no DNA or physical evidence ever found....should we still be convinced that they are alive and well somewhere until this proof is found one way or the other??
To me, demanding some physical evidence of the two bodies to prove their deaths is just as ludicrous....

insight

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2004, 10:41:17 PM »
Quote:"All of the bodies were taken to the forest and they tried to burn them...again more evidence that none of them were still alive. This much is without doubt".

When you say "All" and "without doubt" you are assuming that people involved in the assassination process (of questionable character) were telling the truth. I would be more inclined to see your point if several, credible independant witnesses (not involved in the assassination) observed and were able to positively identify the bodies.

I don't dispute the fact that members of the family and their aids were murdered, bodies burned then burried. This was confirmed through forensic identification of the bones and mtdna analysis.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but was not the explanation (given by the assassins) for the missing bodies of Alexei and one of his sisters a result of the grave being too full? If so then why not dig the pit a bit deeper? Dig another pit right there. Would people who cared nothing for the family make the effort to drag away the burned bodies to a secret location? If that much care and effort was required then why was that same effort not used to "hide" the Tsar's remains?

How can you compare the intense fire and implosion of two skyscrapers and its effect upon the human body with the murder and disposal of a family. I would understand your analogy a bit better if the family was killed in a hudge explosion that spread human remains over a large area...but they weren't.

Quote: "To me, demanding some physical evidence of the two bodies to prove their deaths is just ludicrous..."

LOL!...you can't be serious!  ::) That's like someone coming forward to claim descent from the missing children and when asked to provide physical evidence through dna they say "it's not needed"! I don't have a problem with people's "theories" or "opinions"-if someone wants to believe that the children were abducted by Marvin the Martian I really don't care...opinons are like a**holes everybody has one. It's when words like "fact" or "without doubt" are used that I want to see REAL PHYSICAL EVIDENCE to back that up. What is ludicrous is making assumptions WITHOUT real physical evidence...and if you are that easily convinced with uncredible testimony then I have a great bridge for you... really cheap.

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2004, 12:01:35 PM »
First, in order to accurately understand the events, one must put them into the context of the time. The Ural Soviet decided that the continued existence of the Imperial Family gave the White Army and its supporters and allies too much hope and support and so they decided to murder them all, but to cover it up. It was a bit of disinformation really, because they were also scared that if the murders were public knowledge that the Whites would then seem them as martyrs and seek revenge. So, the idea was for them to totally disappear so that no one would really know what had happened to them (this worked).

OK, lets look at what we know: No question 12 people went into a small room.  More armed men chosen especially for their hatred of the Imperial Family took turns shooting them. No question here either. We know several survived initally, and were finished off, at least to the satisfaction of the executioners. Again no question so far. Yurovsky testified that he personally shot each survivor in the head at least twice. We may choose not to believe this.  I see no reason not to believe him however as there is no motivation for him to lie about this point. Valuables were found, bodies were searched and handled. Again, no question.

An important point to remember is that everyone involved in the murder at this point, every eyewitness, was convinced they were all dead.

A truck was stationed at the front door of the house. We have the requisition record.  Guards were posted in the street to make sure no one came by. We have the posting records and their testimony. Strekotin and Yakimov among others. We also have the driver of the truck sitting in or standing next to it. A six passenger car, an Overland, was delivered to the front door as well, we have the records, and its driver was sent away and told not to come back.
Now. Every single eyewitness testimony says the same thing: Each corpse was removed and placed onto the truck. Again, each person handling each corpse and putting them onto a stretecher and carrying them to the truck is still convinced they are all dead. No one says they actually counted them at this point, BUT, we also know that another detachment of guards who were not present in the house at the time of the murders was sent in immediately afterward to physically clean up the basement of the blood and other remains of the murders. We have their assignment posting logs and their testimony.
So: If there are guards and a truck driven outside in the street to make sure no one comes along, everyone admits that every corpse was put on the truck, and there was no one left in the basement when the guards went down to clean up. WHERE could  any of the bodies have gone? There was no time when they were unattended between the shootings and the truck leaving. So, everyone must be and is still accounted for and on that truck.

Now, testimony at the mine says that the bodies were indeed counted. We can disregard this if you wish, but bear one important thing in mind. In the Russian Orthodox religion, an "uncorrupted body" is required for that person to be a saint.  We know from testimony that it was agreed that each body was to be stripped of their remaining clothing and be disfigured so that they could not recieve Sainthood rites in the Church and they were making sure that each "candidate" was accounted for. We have an eyewitness who says specifically he saw Alexei at this point.  Also, who would remove a body from the truck at this point and how could they have carried it off unnoticed prior to the disfigurements and stripping off the remaining clothes from the bodies (to burn the clothes and hide the evidence), and where would they have taken it? Where would they have hidden it? How could they have tended medically and physically to them? How could this be kept secret? Remember, this is in a boggy wet desolate forest miles out of town.  We know though that physically speaking, this is the only point in what is known of the chain of events where anyone "might" have survived and escaped. What happened later really almost doesn't matter.

Now, we must also be remembered that the Bolsheviks were not convinced that they might win. So, they were also motivated out of fear that IF anyone survived or any evidence of their murdering the Imperial Family was found later, they could be tried and convicted for their actions. This is an important point.

How much more physical evidence can we hope to have?

Yes, everyone has an opinion, but some are more informed than others.  How much research have you done to support your contention that more evidence is required? Please let us know your sources.

insight

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2004, 02:20:43 PM »
Quote: "How much more physical evidence can we hope to have?"

The skeletal remains of the two missing children that can be verified through dna analysis by serveral different sources.

Quote: "How much research have you done to support your contention that more evidence is required? Please let us know your sources."

My contention isn't to support a "theory" either way about the incident...I have stated none in the above posts. I have though already made my position clear regarding why I need to see more physical evidence (see above). A person can vomit out citations left and right, but if the info or interp is tainted from the begining it's of no value; nor does this make the person citing it an expert. It wasn't long ago when people believed the world was flat. Why? because a quote was misinterpreted as being the bonafied word on high (four corners of the earth). People quoted it...cited it...killed and died because it. Even when people wanted more evidence (things weren't adding up) people still ran with it and burried their heads in the sand.  

It wouldn't bother me with slight differences in witness testimonies (normal in any investigation) what does is that they all match too well IMHO. This isn't about I've read 10 books and you have read 11 or the other way around. Again all the people who witnessed it were involved. This is about jumping to conclusions either for and against...it may be enough evidence for you, but it sure isn't for me. Faith based on oral testimony works for religions, but this requires tangible scientific proof!

So if all the witnesses who testified to this and were involved in the assassination, and/or burial, should have been able to direct someone to the burial site...right?

As for Mr. Yurovsky having no reason to lie-what if the two kids escaped the compound prior to the murders happening? You think that entire group of people would not have had a major reason to lie. Yes there is no evidence to suggest that, but men have always had reasons to lie-whether lies are obvious to the general public or not. So what would you do if that happened and you were in their position? Start an intensive search for them- If you couldn't find them you would probably set up an elaborate misinformation campaign that they were killed with the hopes of flushing them out. Maybe you are right though...who am I to say? 8) :-X

You keep basing your certainties on one form of evidence (oral testimony). Are you really that certain? Were you there....no...so then how can you be absolutely certain of those events without real physical evidence? I am not here to say that you are wrong or others are right. I am here to say that you don't have enough evidence to conclude what you have stated.


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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2004, 02:50:44 AM »
Well i have to say that i agree with Insight.  We need more evidence.  The Russian Orthrodox church did not authorize the burial of the Tsar in 1998 because they believed that the bodies been buried were not that of the Tsar and his family.  I mean to me this says a lot and therefore more evidence is required.  Anything could have happened, it was chaos and confusion at that time.  I dont have any evidence to prove my statement but i still believe that more evidence is required so that the missing bodies of the 2 can be found.
Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.
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Offline Alice

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2004, 04:13:54 AM »
This is never going to be solved UNLESS two more skeletons are found and are proved to be related to the other skeletons.

I think I read on a website somewhere that Professor Avdonin found two more skeletons in another grave . . . but I haven't heard anything more. Probably just a rumour.

One thing's for sure: I think that the most unlikely person to escape would've been Alexei because A) he was the heir, B) if he'd been wounded at all his chances would've been slim and C) because he was so young, and so dependent on his mother that if he DID survive, psychologically he would've been severely traumatised and depressed.

Many folks seem to cling to hope that members of the family survived, but please remember how traumatic it would've been for anyone that DID survive. We're talking about a very, very close family here, who were very, very religious, and who believed that when they died, they'd go to Heaven and be with God and with each other. Even if someone DID survive, you can't imagine the state of mind of someone who's family has just been massacred before their eyes. It'd be very difficult for anyone to escape in that state of mind, as escape would require a healthy state of mind (and even in a healthy state of mind, it would still be difficult, in the circumstances). Also, if someone had've survived, they probably would've contemplated suicide.

I'm sorry, but the odds are against survival. It's a possibility, but I think it's a very low possibility. Some folks need to stop kidding themselves by putting so much weight into the survival theory.

insight

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2004, 08:30:35 PM »
Quote: "I'm sorry, but the odds are against survival. It's a possibility, but a very low possibility. Some folks need to stop kidding themselves by putting so much weight into the survival theory."

You could be quite right. Theories are great (for or against), but you need to back them up to make them fact.

You mentioned that Alexei was a "momma's boy" lol...yes that was probably very true. He was also an intelligent and experienced 14 year old. He was probably more experienced in the outdoors than you would think. Going with his dad to the hunting lodge in Poland...his love of fishing...going to the front with his dad during WW1 ect.

When did you hear about him (prof Avdonin) finding these two skeletons?