Author Topic: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich  (Read 180769 times)

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Offline BobAtchison

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2004, 08:48:30 PM »
It has been several years since I have been in contact with Avdonin and I don't know how the search efforts by American scientists ended up.  I will try and find out.  Avdonin has not been well.

Offline Alice

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2004, 05:04:46 AM »
Thanks Bob! Please let us know if you find out anything.

Insight: I read it on a website somewhere, last year I think. (I'll see if I can find the URL and if I can I'll post it)

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2004, 12:50:58 PM »
Dear NAAOTMA (whoever you are since you did not provide us with your name when you signed up).
My exact words which you have deemed "harsh" were these:
"The New York Times reports that over 350 people are missing still from the Sept. 11 tragedy with no DNA or physical evidence ever found....should we still be convinced that they are alive and well somewhere until this proof is found one way or the other??
To me, demanding some physical evidence of the two bodies to prove their deaths is just as ludicrous.... "

Where have I "put down" any specific person? I personally am truly of the belief that holding on to the hypothesis that anyone survived ( after my years of reading, research and discussions with the scientists and others directly involved in the recent investigations about the remains of the Romanovs)just because we do not have physical remainsis indeed ludicrous.  There are hundreds of instances where people are murdered or killed and there are never any physical remains found, yet people gladly accept their deaths as fact, yet for some reason this logic does not apply to the "Anastasia" case. Certainly others are quite free to believe as they wish and I respect their right to do so. There is nothing any more harsh in this statement than in YOURS characterizing my response as somehow unfriendly to any specific person.

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2004, 01:39:30 PM »
Thank you Melissa, no need, I have put it into your profile.

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2004, 10:25:20 PM »
Hi Melissa!

No offence taken  from FA's remark......even though FA is WRONG!   :P

Thank's though

Offline ptitchka

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2004, 08:30:43 PM »
I believe the Forum Administrator makes some very logical arguments in regards to the 'missing' children.  One simply cannot imply that he is wrong about this without backing it up.  The ball is in the court of anyone that means to prove the Heir and his sister survived.

Even the highly controversial book, 'The Fate of the Romanovs', describes Alexei's murder as especially brutal and thorough.  (I doubt the book's authors will be able to pull an Alexei survival theory out of their hat after publishing that.)

Offline BobAtchison

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2004, 11:01:20 AM »
We all wish we could 'undo' the murder, but we can't.  I think that is why most of us would like to believe someone survived that horror.

Many years ago I spoke with Bishop Vassili (Rodzianko) about this.  He told me that I had a romantised conception of the death and that I had not accepted it as fact since in my heart I wished I could back and somehow stop it.  He meant that I did not understand the spiritual importance of it and the reality of evil in the world.  He told me the victims emulated the Passion of Christ and that this was their 'povdig'. Perhaps someone can explain this term....

Bob

insight

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2004, 01:28:29 PM »
Quote: "One simply cannot that he is wrong without first backing it up. The ball is in the court of anyone that means to prove that the Heir and his siter survived."

I didn't imply it...I stated it outright. If you read the above posts you will see that I have no dispute with any theory of the FA. My problem comes with his use of "flawed logic", eg: comparing the childrens missing bodies to those missing from 911 and broad, uncited caselaw to further his arguement as fact.

I agree with the fact that people have been convicted of murder without a body being found. These instances are extremely rare (ask any prosecuter how hard it is to get a conviction). I would like to see one cited case in which the evidence resembles this incident! A case where there was absolutely no penalty for those who committed the crime. A case where those involved had everything to loose by telling the truth if two children had escaped. A case which involved government at it's highest level. If someone wants to compare this to any other murder case...go ahead...for me other previous caselaw doesn't have alot of bearing on this incident. Granted one can make the assumption that a person missing for a certain number of years is presumed dead (insurance ect). I'm not prepared to make that assumption because there are still too many loose ends that have not been tied up.  

Some of the loose ends are as follows:
1. There was another post on this board which stated that the assassins bragged about the murders years later, and that they wore it as a "badge of honor". Of course they would! Let's see...in one hand, hero's of their party or getting the "bumbling bonehead award" of the century for allowing the heir and his sister to escape? Let's see...in one hand get favorable treatment and  possibly a good position in the new government, or the other is face public embarrassment and wrath of your superiors? These men had alot of reason to lie.

2. The men who carried out the murders were not methodical and meticulous. They were sloppy and lazy from the start. The evidence of this shows up quite clearly in the way they disposed of the bodies. The men dumped the bodies in a well...pulled them out again...tried to burn two and when that didn't work...buried the rest in a common grave and yet took the time and effort to cart off the two burnt bodies and bury them in an undisclosed location? Hmmm...if they were in that much of a hurry with the White Army on the doorstep they would have dug a pit right there and burried the bodies of the two children. Why not try and burn the Tsar's body? Why not try to hide his in a secret location?

3. Why does the Russian Orthodox dispute the claim that all the family died? Is this just wishful thinking or was it someone close to the Orthodox Church who sheltered the two children? If they knew for certain that two children survived, and then for years listened to lies about it, they would be very sceptical concerning any dna findings.

4. The muderers explained in enough detail to locate the main grave. Where was the information and detail to locate the grave of Alexei and his sister?

5. Most important is the fact that two skeletons have yet to be found whose dna matches those of Alexei and his sister.  

I'm not here to judge anyone's theory; just to question the evidence or lack thereof.

In regards to books and publications, if you wish to follow their reasoning, and it makes sense to you then great. :)

Offline Lanie

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2004, 06:57:41 PM »
I've read that the Orthodox Church had been revering fake bones from the 20s or something (in Paris, I think).  Which would explain why they wouldn't acknowledge these bones.  Dunno if that's true or not.

Offline ptitchka

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2004, 08:31:17 PM »
More on 'The Fate of the Romanovs' - I actually found that book to be much too indiscriminate in its citation of sources and much too slanted towards 'de-idolizing' the Imperial Family.  

When I say that the ball is in the court of those who wish to believe someone survived the massacre of the Tsar and his family, I mean that there is no really compelling evidence on their side of the coin.  The overwhelming testimony about the murders, the circumstances and the crime scenes bears much more scrutiny than any pretender's claim.

I challenge anyone who believes Alexei survived to share with us anything they wish about a living Tsarevich any time after July 16, 1918.

Offline ptitchka

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2004, 08:45:39 PM »
Mr. Atchison - it's a pleasure to try to explain the term 'podvig' as best I can.  The term translates in Russian as 'exploit, feat' in my Oxford Russian/English Dictionary, but perhaps it also means 'how well one bears one's cross.'  (one's sufferings, trials, irritations).  

The crosses of Alexei, his parents and his sisters appear heavy indeed to us, especially since they were topped off with a brutal mass murder.  Someone once wrote 'Who would want to lay a hand on this nice boy, these beautiful girls?'  We may feel the same way.  This world being subjected to futility as it is, a few people did do such a thing, and a few people continue to do such things.  But bear their heavy cross they did, with that faith and patience and love the available anecdotes tell of.

Hope this helps, sir.  It's an honor to try!  Thank you for continuing and improving upon this site!

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2004, 04:09:43 PM »
Bob, I think you meant "podvig"which literally means a "heroic act" in Russian. The Imperial family had been martyred and subsequently canonized by the Russian Orthodox church, since the church leaders felt that they all died in the name of religion (loosely speaking). The idea is that the Bolsheviks tried to eliminate not only the monarchy but any 'earthly representatives appointed by God", which the Tsar and his family were considered to be... and they all died for that.
Helen

David Newell

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2004, 07:41:54 AM »
I have read all the above messages with great interest. I began reading about the family many years ago. I think I have read everything in print in english, many in french and some not in print books. I have spoken to AF's late nephew Earl mountbatten. I sincerly believe that the family all perished that dreadfull night in 1918. I have always believed that and when I asked Mountbatten about the then new theorys on some of the children escaping (it was the 1970's then) he sad very sadly that he hoped that the family had all died together , because as he said none of them survived and if any did it would have prolonged their agony. Mountbatten was avery kind man, old when I spoke to him and he did not have to take the time to speak to a 9 year old. But I have to say I never thought that in my life time that our Queen would visit Russia and that AF and the family would be buried in St. petersburg. So I am always open to new ideas about the murder. But in my heart I know they all died together. I think the bishop that Bob A. spoke to has the right idea, we have to accept the evil of this dreadfull event and be at peace with it for their sakes. I also very strongly believe that this event was the begining of the dreadfull events that were to follow where a childs innocence came to mean nothing, when other famillies would be sent to their deaths in the horror of the Second World War. It was as if once done it could be done over and over again. We still see it happening. Lets hope that we shall learn from the mistakes we have made.

Please excuse my spelling I can't find the spell check on here.

David Newell. London

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2004, 08:53:40 PM »
Insight...
 While I agree that we dont have factual evidence, I do have to challenge your assertion that Alexei had obtained some sort of survival skills thru visits to his fathers hunting lodge. Spala was not just a cabin...it was a lodge with all the creature comforts of turn of the century Poland. It was dreary and dark, but not without creature comforts. I also cant recall reading about any other visit to Spala made by Alexei other than THE visit in 1912 that almost killed the boy.  Im sure he wasnt out and about much on that visit!
 The whole issue of a survivor has been a troubling mystery for many years, and will be until, as you say, they find the missing skeletons.  But I have to agree with Jane that...at least if only by supposition..that Alexei would have had worst odds for survival. Lets face it, he was frail. He had only recently gotten into the bathtub on his own...and that was momentous enough to make the Empresses diary.

Offline Angie_H

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2004, 09:39:37 AM »
 Since Alexei was a haemophiliac his parents did their upmost to protect him from injury, but there is one photo of him that boggles me every time I see it!  :o It is Alexei on a bike with one of his sailor nannies. What gets me is that Alexei is in a seat on the handle bars?????!!!!!!!!!!!!! What were they thinking????