Author Topic: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich  (Read 177502 times)

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insight

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2004, 01:37:33 PM »
David's Quote: "I do have to challenge your assertion that Alexei had obtained some sort of survival skills through visits to his fathers hunting lodge."

It was not my intent to imply that the boy was "Rambo". Just think though how fond of the Cossacks he was. A boy (Royalty or not) between the ages of 7-14 is full of questions. Now I'm just guessing here, but don't you think he would pester his father (and some of the guards) about "soldier stuff"? As a military cadet would he not be taught basic survival skills as they are today?

Everybody seems to imply that he was this delicate wilting lily. He was an outdoors kind of kid, who loved to fish, train his dog and play in the dirt.

Angie_H: It should make wonder! There is also a photo of him sitting on the back of a pony, which was probably pretty tame. If he was suffering from hemophelia would you take him to the front with you during the war? There is photo's of him at the front with his uniform, pack, and rifle. If he was really that frail would you do these things?

I also have a question for Bob or FA. When the mtdna was recovered from the remains, did they look for the gene mutation that causes hemophelia? If they did, was it type 1 or type 2 hemophelia which was carried?      

Offline Louise

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2004, 02:27:13 PM »
It has been written that Alexei was a naturally curious young boy with all the enthusiasm of any child. However, as we know his hemophalia kept him from pursuing many of the activites that children participate in.

From the pictures I have seen with Alexia on a bike, it looks to me like a three wheeler/tricyle with large back wheels. I can only assume the larger wheels are for a better balance to prevent him from falling.

One can only surmise why Alexei is on the handle bars of the bike. Could it be it was a posed picture? The same with pictures of him on a horse. I would also presume that he was watched, and guarded throughly so accidents would not befall him.

I also believe that Alexei was brought to the front lines to spend time with his father and to learn and understand the rigors and the statesmanship of ruling Russia. The Tsar felt he was inadequately trained by his father and did not want to make the same mistake with his son.

Louise
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Offline anna

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2004, 03:56:25 PM »
Angie's quote: What were they thinking!.

You must not forget, N&A were indeed overprotecting parents a normal reaction in Alexei's case. Actually it was P. Gilliard who suggested to let loose and try no to pamper him to much. This was necessary for his physical development.
Gilliard never thought they would agree but reject. N&A understood very well the importance of giving Alexei a change to develop as a normal child, despite his ilniss.
I think this was a very brave decision.
But what Gilliard secretly feared happened, Alexei injured himself and Gilliard felt responsible. But as hard as it was, Nicholas nor Alexandra blamed him for this.

Anna

Watch your thoughts, they become words. Watch your words, they become actions.
Watch your actions, they become habits.
Watch your habits, they become character. Watch your character, it becomes your destiny.

Steve

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2004, 04:24:57 PM »
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This was a member of the Cheka, G.I. Sukhorukov, who was assigned to go help dispose of the corpses of the Royal Family the next morning. On April 3, 1928 his memoir:... "It was necessary to begin digging up the corpses (after the attempt to burn them the previous night)...the first thing we came across was the leg of the last Nicholas.  He was removed successfully, and then all the others. To be precise, it can be said that everybody was naked, except for the heir, who had on a shirt sailor but no trousers."


Strange. Let me quote some other witnesses...

Medvedev: "The tsar carried the heir in hir arms. The tsar and the heir were dressed in millitary blouses with caps."

Yurovsky: "The wanted to burn Alexei and Alexandra, but by mistake burned Alexei and the lady-in-waiting instead." If they burned his corpus how could it be Sukhorukov saw a shirt???

I don't know what to beleive. Maybe Alexei survived.

May I advise you to visit www.searchingalexei.com

Offline ptitchka

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2004, 10:02:49 PM »
About those quotes, Steve:

It may be worth your while to consider that these observations were made at different times, describing different scenes - the cellar as opposed to the Four Brothers Mine as opposed to the location of the burial of most of the family and the attempted cremation of the Tsarevich and whichever of his sisters was mistaken for his mother.  

The observation about the 'millitary blouses' - which more probably meant 'military tunics' (overshirts) - refers to the earliest chronological moment in your three quotes, when they were still alive.

The Tsarevich could very well have worn a striped sailors' undershirt (typically a snug fitting garment usually worn underneath a white middy shirt with a sailors' collar) underneath his military tunic at the time of the murders.  Such tight clothing would have been difficult to remove from the poor boy given the murderers' haste to dispose of their victims at the mine.  This would explain the circumstances of that quote that falls here in time.

The third quote about the attempted cremation refers to the last moment of the three chronologically, does not mention what Alexei did or did not have on, and therefore cannot reasonably imply anything about this.

None of this is strange at all,  and none of what you have cited can reasonably lead to a conclusion that the Tsarevich may have survived.  I DO, however, hope to see more on www.searchingalexei.com than I have seen already.

Offline masha

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2004, 10:04:22 PM »
Dear Everybody, but especially Bob, Pravoslavnaya & David Newell for making the discussion poignent , meaningful & even funny - I too, desperately need spellcheck!
First of all, like many who have given serious thought to this whole issue over the years, I've flip-flopped between the two sides Re: the children's survival. For many years from the time of my childhood back in the early 1970's when my father first showed me the picture of the last Tsar, described him in endearing terms & gave me the Massey book to read, I believed that the family all died together. Peter Kurth's book about Anastasia, with his ever convinving way of writing and sources swayed my thinking - eventhough I could never reconcile the looks of Anna Anderson with those of Anastasia. For a few years I came to believe that she & her brother survived.
It was not until I spoke of this with some very dear friends of mine who grew- up & lived through the comminist years in Russia, that I had my mind set straight on the matter & have reverted to my original opionion that they could not have survived anything as so horrid an experience alone. Yes, I'm with you, Insight, as far as the deceitfulness of Yuovsky & his so-called witnesses. His actions, his morality & overall integrity are a reflection of the whole history of the communist regime, who turned their people inside-out & against each other with thier lies, brutality & lack of anything good. How can we trust anyone with so little goodness? There is much more than meets the eye on the latter stages of the whole muder, or as you say, Bob, when things begin to go a-muck. Yet, for anyone who has ever experienced any form of physical violence or brutality, one would have to be certain that the family all died - their killers would make certain of it.
To finish, I would like to end with the Anna Anderson case & the other imposters - again, it's no secret how that regime played mind games with seducers, spies and general mis-information. Don't think for a moment that this whole field day wasn't the intended out-come, and that people like Anderson were either out-right opportunists or slickly coached agents of bedlam.

steve

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #36 on: March 06, 2004, 02:02:49 PM »
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About those quotes, Steve:

It may be worth your while to consider that these observations were made at different times, describing different scenes - the cellar as opposed to the Four Brothers Mine as opposed to the location of the burial of most of the family and the attempted cremation of the Tsarevich and whichever of his sisters was mistaken for his mother.


Are you suggesting that they changed alexeis cloths after the execution and even after the burning?

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The observation about the 'millitary blouses' - which more probably meant 'military tunics' (overshirts) - refers to the earliest chronological moment in your three quotes, when they were still alive.


Yes, walking to the so-called execution "cellar"...

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The Tsarevich could very well have worn a striped sailors' undershirt (typically a snug fitting garment usually worn underneath a white middy shirt with a sailors' collar) underneath his military tunic at the time of the murders.  Such tight clothing would have been difficult to remove from the poor boy given the murderers' haste to dispose of their victims at the mine.  This would explain the circumstances of that quote that falls here in time.


That would be an undershirt from very special meterial that doesn't burn away when cremating a body.

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None of this is strange at all......


:o ???  :o

Steve

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #37 on: March 06, 2004, 02:13:46 PM »
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His actions, his morality & overall integrity are a reflection of the whole history of the communist regime, who turned their people inside-out & against each other with thier lies, brutality & lack of anything good. How can we trust anyone with so little goodness? There is much more than meets the eye on the latter stages of the whole muder, or as you say, Bob, when things begin to go a-muck. Yet, for anyone who has ever experienced any form of physical violence or brutality, one would have to be certain that the family all died - their killers would make certain of it.


Don't forget that the events occured in 1918. The Whites were still in power in great parts of Russia and fighting in and around Ekaterinburg.


Offline ptitchka

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #38 on: March 07, 2004, 03:53:12 PM »
Dear Steve:

Perhaps I did not make myself quite as clear as I hoped.  Again:  the first remark about the military tunics referred to that point in time when the Tsar carried his son down the stairs to the cellar in the Ipatiev house.  Not a so-called cellar but in fact the very one the Soviets at one time even took important people to visit as the place where they had killed Nicholas II.  And the new Cathedral 'on the Blood' in the city of Yekaterinburg is built over that very same spot, with an altar in that very place.

I did mention that the sailor shirt seen on poor Alexei was one he'd probably worn as if it were an undershirt UNDERNEATH the military tunic.  At the Four Brothers Mine Yurovsky's men undressed the family in order to burn their clothes, right?  But either due to haste or not being able to remove that sailor shirt from Alexei due to the condition of his body the shirt was apparently still on him when the bodies were removed from the pit and taken to Koptyiaki Forest.  This, of course was BEFORE the attempted cremation and burial.

When the Bolsheviks tried to burn Alexei and his sister, there was no mention of anything he was wearing, but surely the shirt would have burned up.  

Now I would like to challenge you, Steve, to tell me how this is strange rather than very sad.  I would like to challenge you to explain how, based on whatever you have read, Alexei could have survived the occasion of his murder and that of his family.




Offline BobAtchison

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #39 on: March 07, 2004, 04:26:01 PM »
It isn't surprizing that Aleksey wore a sailor undershirt beneath his tunic.

Bob

Offline masha

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #40 on: March 07, 2004, 10:37:53 PM »
Steve,
To clarify my statement about Yurovsky - his actions in the "House of Special Purpose" was symbolic of the whole regime that emerged or rather forced it's way into power. The blood on his hands from that night in July 1918 represents the bloodshed and terror that was to come.

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #41 on: March 07, 2004, 11:20:02 PM »
Bob.. No it is not surprising. He more than likely wore the undershirt for bed.  Put on the tunic when he was to move about.
They no longer had the luxury of  a regular change of clothes, after all.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

steve

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2004, 12:07:24 AM »
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Dear Steve:
Now I would like to challenge you, Steve, to tell me how this is strange rather than very sad.  I would like to challenge you to explain how, based on whatever you have read, Alexei could have survived the occasion of his murder and that of his family.


How can you convince someone who strongly beleives in Sokolov? That investigation was a fraud! Before Sokolov arrived there were two other investigations and both explained that the celler was to small to kill 12 people. I think, after reading several great works, that it happened another way. They killed the tsar, that we can be sure of but I really don't know what happened to the other family members.

The bolsheviks themselves said for weeks that the boy and his mother were save.

steve

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #43 on: March 08, 2004, 12:22:11 AM »
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Clearly it is possible that perhaps one hundred people who were supposed to be in the WTC September 11 decided to use the tragedy as an excuse to disappear and start new lives and identities from scratch.....The New York Times reports that over 350 people are missing still from the Sept. 11 tragedy with no DNA or physical evidence ever found....should we still be convinced that they are alive and well somewhere until this proof is found one way or the other??
To me, demanding some physical evidence of the two bodies to prove their deaths is just as ludicrous....


You can't compare this weeks of burning with a campfire made by the bolsheviks...

steve

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #44 on: March 08, 2004, 12:28:41 AM »
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I personally don't think anyone should jump to conclusions regarding the missing children without proper forensic evidence. There needs to be dna recovered which positively identifies any remains. The same level of evidence (if not more) is required from those who claim that the two survived (or claim descent). When someone says they know the answer to this issue then they should be able to provide conclusive evidence and not just conclusive theories.      


I think that if you claim that Alexei was murdered you need to proof that. If I disappear and someone shows you my clothes. Would you beleive I'm dead? (Of course not, you would like to see more evidence)

So far Alexeis body (and even the bodies of the girls) have never been found. Don't jump to conclusions after reading a fraud investigation or second hand witness accounts (none of the witnesses saw the execution)